TRoss43

Well its kinda like Vuc's development in reverse. Vuc didn't have the 3 in his game but now plays hi-low as good as any big in the league. Don't you think Bamba has the skills to develop a respectable low-post game? That's why I continue to use the word "develop". Also again...I'm not saying Bamba needs to become the "scorer" for the 2nd group but I believe he could develop into I guy that has to be doubled on the block which would lead to better shots. He's a big, athletic dude and can shoot. He's already a plus shooter from range and as he becomes more aggressive, he will be formidable around the block. Part of his timidity IMO is because he has Ross firing away and he doesn't look to get actively involved at times. That's a coaching thing.

Honestly...how would you know? There hasn't been an offensive set on the 2nd unit in two years! I love the ability of Ross to single-handedly shoot us back into a game. Problem is...he doesn't know the difference in providing a spark and letting the game coming to him. He's obviously been instructed to bomb away. I think getting the ball out of his hands and letting Fultz/Bama start working some pick-and-roll stuff with Ross spotting up more would make a big difference for consistency. We know what we have on our starting group minus JI. His ceiling is still ahead of him. We need to find out what Fultz and Bamba can do. With Ross running with them, that growth will be stagnated. I'm personally think we have the talent to move into the mid-upper eschelon in the East but we have to develop it. If we aren't going to try and grow Bamba into a 2-way stud, then trade him and play Birch.

I referred to the 2nd group running more through him on offense i.e. inside-out where Ross isn't shooting contested 3's every time down. I'm not saying he needs to shoot more but I believe he can facilitate a more repeatable efficiency for that group than what we have now.

Ross should have his green light revoked and made to play within the confines of a set offensive rotation. This is a stereo-typical win for us. Good team defense with Vuc carrying us down the stretch. These games will be 20+ point wins when AG/Ross/Fournier have decent to above decent shooting nights. We will loose our fair share when they have offensive games like tonight. It's Vuc and then I would argue JI is making a push to be our 2nd offensive option right now. Fournier thinks its him but Cliff needs to make him think otherwise. Fultz will be a question mark for much of the first half of the season, especially on offense. The 2nd group needs to start running offense through Bamba more.

As Vuch goes, so will this team. You can't build an offense around anyone else right now. Last night was a one-off for him. The plan was to have Gordon be the "go-too" guy by now. As I've said before, Gordon knows that and the pressure he feels to be that guy is destroying his ability to function on the offensive end. He doesn't have an identity in terms of shot selection within the flow of the game. He wants to shoot 3's...he wants to dribble...he wants to facilitate. These are all things he can't consistently do. JI need to have more and more sets run through him. He may be our best chance at finding "that guy". Gordan needs to play more around the basket w/o the ball in his hands on the perimeter. His best chance to be consistent right now is by using his athletic ability to positively impact our offense. He should still pop out and take some 3's but that doesn't need to be the norm.

This is a nice breakdown. So lets discuss this..Would you agree with the consensus opinion that Fournier/Vuc together creates to much stagnation on offense and certainly leaves us 2 minus defenders on that end? If so, how about starting Fultz at the 2, let DJ play off the ball more and allow Fultz to do we he apparently is most capable of doing now...distribute and play plus defense. Maybe that gives us less time with Fournier/AG with the ball in their hands and we actually create open shots through ball movement? Also, when DJ can square his shoulders from 3, he's deadly. Playing off the ball more would facilitate that. I wouldn't mind Iwundu running point some with the 2nd group. We all know as soon as TR touches it, its going up anyway. It was never that I thought Fultz couldn't contribute, it was that the early feedback on this board for his play didn't match what I saw with my own eyes. This team lacks a cohesive offense and maybe having two PG-skilled guys together would minimize what we aren't good at and maximize the skill sets of our guys who are capable scorers. Plus I believe Fultz would be an upgrade against other team's 2's defensively. Right now we don't need Fultz feeling like he HAS to score. I think that's what AG is/will struggle with this year.

I think we are asking the same question at the beginning of this season as we've been asking for a long time....when the game is on the line, who takes the shot? Right now, it's still Vuc. We sure did/do need AG to become a complete offensive player. AG just seems to be too much in his own head to get there. Fournier thinks he's that guy and I guess he could stake a claim to it as currently constructed. Therein lies the problem. We are gonna run people outta the gym when AG/Fournier?Ross are on at the same time. We are gonna suffer a lot of ugly losses because we can't adjust when they aren't. Vuc is 18-8 every night and that's the only thing we can hang our hat on.

Lol...but you reminded me about Aminu and I changed it! You dismiss Bamba in the starting lineup like its something that has been done to death. It hasn't so your "empirical" evidence is very thin. Here's my thought process...Vuc/Bamba can play hi-low interchangeably on offense with Bamba being the rim protector we so desperately need on defense. The thought is that Vuc would get torched by a good PF. How bout Vuc gets torched by good 5's too so that really is a push imo. Here's where our starting lineup is-DJ-good offensive PG and a below avg. defensive PG. Fournier-Far too inconsistent on offense. He's a spot and shoot guy trying to play a slasher. Below avg. D. JI-4th option on offense so will never be a big scorer on the floor with the rest of these "volume shooters" we have. Above avg.to elite D. Gordon-schizophrenic offensive player who is going to press far too much this year to show he is our "superstar" player. D is above avg to elite. Vuc is Vuc. Offensive sparkplug that is lazy defensively. This lineup has been done to death and its not growing. Last year our 2nd group with Ross shooting out of his mind was the best part of team for several stretches. This current starting lineup will likely be worse statistically than they were last year. I just don't like the chemistry of this 1st group. It's just my opinion, which you obviously don't share. See you at the 8th seed!

It's a rare occurrence when a team drafts a guy as high as Philly drafted Fultz, then let him go for nothing and then that guy becomes a gamechanger for another team. My early commentary on Fultz(that everyone disagreed with) was that he did not look like a guy who was going to dramatically move the needle for the Magic. All the glowing comments on here about how athletic and explosive Fultz was after a couple games was just downright silly. People refused to believe that we had another PG that can't shoot and turns the ball over too much. He looks like a guy who had his original team punt on instead of continuing a seemingly fruitless process of rehabilitation. We all want him to be an integral part of the Magic's future. We need him to be. It's not unfair to say that he has shown very little so far to make anyone he will be. This is the NBA. Gotta bring more than athleticism and an occasional turnaround jumper from 12 ft. Maybe in time....

I don't think the evidence is empirical at all. Have you witnessed this lineup playing together for an extended period? Do you think the current starting lineup doesn't have empirical evidence suggesting that it's topped out? Should we play it straight and work hard for the 8th seed again because that will be the eventual outcome if we change nothing. I did forget about Aminu. Start him in place of AG and move Bamba back to 2nd unit. How do you think that would work?

That starting lineup is awful...why? MCW is a facilitator vs Fournier who is not. I assume Bamba over AG is a hangup for you? We don't need our 4/5 guys dribbling all over the court and trying to play like a 1/2. I'm afraid next year you will say Gordon is 25...Relax and on and on. He's had plenty of time to show consistency on offense. He hasn't and i'm just pointing out the obvious.

Still no go-to guy. I hoped AG was going to develop into a "Jimmy Butler" type guy for Magic. I think I've seen enough now to realize he's probably always gonna be a great athlete with erratic offensive tools except dunking. I think Fournier, AG and Ross are going to be a continued hinderance to total team cohesiveness on offense. I would like to see DJ, MCW, JI, Bamba and Vuc start given our current roster. Put Fultz, Fournier, Ross, AG and KB on the 2nd group. We know Vuc/Fournier together is slow and slower 2-man offense. If we don't do something to fix that dynamic, the offense will be underwhelming for long stretches in far too many games. Our 2nd unit has a chance to be good but Clifford needs to reign Ross in and remind him that he actually has some guys around him now that can score. It's very frustrating to watch a Heat team with 1 go-to guy and a bunch of slappies, move the ball and execute an offense that is cohesive and gets open looks continuously.

Just on a straight line projection w/o any other metrix involved, what do you think Fultz's numbers will be at the end of season?(considering he's healthy for the majority of season) Just PPG/RB/Assists. I say 10-5-5. What say you?

Basketball is different because players succeed in different ways— there’s large differences in how players like Curry make an impact and how players like Westbrook make an impact. It’s not a uniform “Fielding, speed, power, hitting consistency” like it is in baseball since players in basketball find their own success in their own ways. You also haven’t defined what those “5 tools” are, and even if you did, it’d be arbitrary because it’d be biased to certain styles of play. Fultz is our best passer on the team. He’s the best at getting into the paint, and once his finishing improves, he’ll become a valuable scorer off the bench (I remember Oladipo having a similar struggle his rookie year of getting to the basket often but not being able to convert that into points. He improved on that drastically as he progressed throughout the season and into his career, though). He’s a plus defender with his length and size, and I’ve seen him be pretty active with steals and deflections. If you want to call that the 4 tools— defending, passing, scoring, shooting— Fultz is already a 2 tool player, with a pretty short term projection of becoming a 3 tool player as his finishing improves. With respect, I don’t really see what you’re seeing— the passing and defense seem pretty plain to the eye to me, and he was terrific getting to the basket versus Boston. I appreciate your points. Defense prowess of a PG is somewhat subjective because they switch so much .There were games where Payton's on-ball defense was excellent. Again, a PG's defensive effectiveness is not as obvious as guys in the post. Also, your last statement was that he was terrific getting to the basket tonight. Payton too was terrific at getting to the basket. You actually have to be able to finish for it to matter. Payton was sub-par there and Fultz(small sample) has been too. I got hammered pretty good for my Payton comp and have heard several times that they are completely different players. Completely different? Really? Payton had them same type of honeymoon period on here when everyone wanted to believe that he was our PG of the future. I'll take it a step further. Had Payton played with this current Magic talent, I believe his numbers would be as good/better than Fultz's numbers will be. I hope I'm wrong and if I am, i'll gladly admit it. I do appreciate comments and respect yours/others opinions on this. Payton's number with Orlando was roughly 10-4-6. I'm going to predict that Fultz's numbers after this yr. will be 10-5-5. Solid enough numbers for a back-up PG but if you read all the glowing commentary about Fultz on here, I think it's safe to say that people don't think they are looking at a guy who will just put up solid back-up numbers. He was totally worth a shot in terms of what the front office packaged to get him. I just don't think he's the piece that moves Orlando into the upper eschelon of the Eastern conf. I believe that piece was already on the roster. 3 pieces actually~AG,JI and MB. Their individual growth will determine how far the Magic climb in conference for the next several years. I also believe that had the F.O. not resigned Vuc, this whole growth curve would've been severely hampered. He is still the "glue guy" on this team because of his ability to keep our offense moving. Bamba, I believe will become that guy, but he's not yet. With the range that both Bamba/Vuc possess, I would like to see these two on the court together more this year. Bamba can protect paint and minimize Vuc's weakness on that front. A lineup of DJ/TRoss/AG/Vuc/Bamba could be very potent on both ends.

I appreciate your points. Defense prowess of a PG is somewhat subjective because they switch so much .There were games where Payton's on-ball defense was excellent. Again, a PG's defensive effectiveness is not as obvious as guys in the post. Also, your last statement was that he was terrific getting to the basket tonight. Payton too was terrific at getting to the basket. You actually have to be able to finish for it to matter. Payton was sub-par there and Fultz(small sample) has been too. I got hammered pretty good for my Payton comp and have heard several times that they are completely different players. Completely different? Really? Payton had them same type of honeymoon period on here when everyone wanted to believe that he was our PG of the future. I'll take it a step further. Had Payton played with this current Magic talent, I believe his numbers would be as good/better than Fultz's numbers will be. I hope I'm wrong and if I am, i'll gladly admit it. I do appreciate comments and respect yours/others opinions on this.