2017 Watch the Playoffs Thread!

[Fultz4thewin 2,464]

The advanced #s mostly paint Payton as a slightly better player too, though not by a significant amount.

 

yeah. they're just not dramatically different quality players.

[Odin 137]

yeah. they're just not dramatically different quality players.

 

Oh- for sure. I think Schroder is a perfectly fine player.

 

I just think various members of the board often undervalue Payton because he is not good in the way we want him to be good.

 

(Not saying he is not replaceable, just that he is undervalued).

 

Payton (and Shroder, Rubio, Holiday, Jackson, etc) are all perfectly fine starting PGs that you would be happy to replace with a better player.

[Franchero MVP 391]

Oh- for sure. I think Schroder is a perfectly fine player.

 

I just think various members of the board often undervalue Payton because he is not good in the way we want him to be good.

 

(Not saying he is not replaceable, just that he is undervalued).

 

Payton (and Shroder, Rubio, Holiday, Jackson, etc) are all perfectly fine starting PGs that you would be happy to replace with a better player.

 

It's not simply just the way we want him to be. He can be great with a roster tailored to him -- but this roster is not and he doesn't quite fit.

[Mauro Pedrosa 1,032]

They are basically the same.

Eh..

[Justin Jaudon 221]

They are basically the same.

 

They really aren't. Shroder does a lot of the good things that Payton does, indeed almost all of them; and he has many of the same weaknesses, like TO's and inconsistency. But Shroder also can shoot. He's not a great shooter, by any means. But he's good enough (above 30% from outside on far more shots per game, plus he's a good FT shooter) to keep people from just not guarding him out there at all or fouling him and sending him to the line. But Payton is a god-awful shooter who is basically terrified to take a jump-shot. Saying they are basically the same is incomplete. They are basically the same, except Shroder doesn't have Payton's main weekness.

[Fultz4thewin 2,464]

They really aren't. Shroder does a lot of the good things that Payton does, indeed almost all of them; and he has many of the same weaknesses, like TO's and inconsistency. But Shroder also can shoot. He's not a great shooter, by any means. But he's good enough (above 30% from outside on far more shots per game, plus he's a good FT shooter) to keep people from just not guarding him out there at all or fouling him and sending him to the line. But Payton is a god-awful shooter who is basically terrified to take a jump-shot. Saying they are basically the same is incomplete. They are basically the same, except Shroder doesn't have Payton's main weekness.

 

Despite all that Payton had a better on/ off than schroder. They're basically the same quality player.

[Justin Jaudon 221]

Despite all that Payton had a better on/ off than schroder. They're basically the same quality player.

 

By that logic, since Payton had a better on/off than Kawhi Leonard, they're basically the same quality player.

 

Don't get me wrong. I'm actually not a huge fan of Shroder (for the same inconsistency issues that I have with Payton), so saying that Payton is not that different in quality is not that absurd to me. Quality and usefulness are different, and I know you know that. My point is simply that using on/off statistics is horrendously flawed when gauging players even on the same team, unless they play the same position; using them to judge players on a playoff team and a bottom feeding team is absurd.

[Fultz4thewin 2,464]

By that logic, since Payton had a better on/off than Kawhi Leonard, they're basically the same quality player.

 

Don't get me wrong. I'm actually not a huge fan of Shroder (for the same inconsistency issues that I have with Payton), so saying that Payton is not that different in quality is not that absurd to me. Quality and usefulness are different, and I know you know that. My point is simply that using on/off statistics is horrendously flawed when gauging players even on the same team, unless they play the same position; using them to judge players on a playoff team and a bottom feeding team is absurd.

 

Sure. But its not the only thing I'm using. Compare their seasons, its similar. Compare their on/offs they're similar. Except schroder made a playoff team worse while Payton made a garbage team better so how do you judge that?

 

Schroder is a solid starting point guard who's flawed and peaks outside of the top 10 at his position. He's good enough when you have other more talented players around him but you can't really build around him.

 

Payton its they same or at least projects the same in a best case scenario.

[Fultz4thewin 2,464]

What are the raptors doing!?

[Justin Jaudon 221]

Sure. But its not the only thing I'm using. Compare their seasons, its similar. Compare their on/offs they're similar. Except schroder made a playoff team worse while Payton made a garbage team better so how do you judge that?

 

Schroder is a solid starting point guard who's flawed and peaks outside of the top 10 at his position. He's good enough when you have other more talented players around him but you can't really build around him.

 

Payton its they same or at least projects the same in a best case scenario.

 

I agree with most of this. Payton is just limited by the historically poor shooting, so I would rather have Shroder, because while they are comparable players in terms of what impact they can have in a vacuum, Payton is limited to being on a team where he has at least three other shooters on the floor at all timesif we ever want to be successful (Shroder can manage with two without completely collapsing the defense).

 

I think you're right, in a vacuum, about what they can be respectively, if in the right situation. But I don't like comparing on/off numbers for any of our starters, because it makes all of them look better than they are, when in reality it is more likely that we just had the worst bench in the league, way worse than our only marginally terrible starters. I suppose the on/off numbers would be relevant if Payton's were actually bad, considering our starter/bench dynamic, but since they are right in line with the rest of our starters, I think it's irrelevant.

 

Essentially, I agree with you; I was just pointing out that on/off statistics shouldn't even be considered a factor in this instance.

[Fultz4thewin 2,464]

I agree with most of this. Payton is just limited by the historically poor shooting, so I would rather have Shroder, because while they are comparable players in terms of what impact they can have in a vacuum, Payton is limited to being on a team where he has at least three other shooters on the floor at all timesif we ever want to be successful (Shroder can manage with two without completely collapsing the defense).

 

I think you're right, in a vacuum, about what they can be respectively, if in the right situation. But I don't like comparing on/off numbers for any of our starters, because it makes all of them look better than they are, when in reality it is more likely that we just had the worst bench in the league, way worse than our only marginally terrible starters. I suppose the on/off numbers would be relevant if Payton's were actually bad, considering our starter/bench dynamic, but since they are right in line with the rest of our starters, I think it's irrelevant.

 

Essentially, I agree with you; I was just pointing out that on/off statistics shouldn't even be considered a factor in this instance.

 

Eh ok then.

 

Can you throw a c into his name? Its been eating at me.

[Justin Jaudon 221]

Eh ok then.

 

Can you throw a c into his name? Its been eating at me.

 

Wait... A 'c' into whose name?