Henny has been fired!

[Magicman28 295]

Skiles was better for Mario. Skiles was very bad for payton. Skiles was better at seeing something not work and change it. Skiles was better at using odd lineups to force a mismatch. Skiles also inherited a roster where the top 7 players had been playing together for a year already.

 

Vogel was worse for Mario. Vogel was very good for payton. Vogel was bad about shifting strategy. Vogel attempted to resolve issues with weak imagination (i.e. this isn't working, what if we start green/augustin and bench Gordon/payton). But Vogel inherited a roster where something like 60% of the minutes were being replaced by new players.

 

Vogel tried to coach this team using the same strategies as he has for years. He wasn't prepared to coach a new team and learn to play a more versatile brand of basketball. He's admitted as much. I have more faith in Vogel long term than I would for skiles (because skiles burns guys out). I don't know if he'd be better this past year. I don't think we trade for Ibaka. I think there's a reasonable chance we end up with Andrew Bogut as a backup center and resign Jennings. I think we end up trading Oladipo regardless.

 

 

And trading Payton.

 

 

We'd probably do the RJ trade and get ripped off in the process.

[Justin Jaudon 221]

You're contradicting yourself man. You say he wasn't brought here to play but played 17 mins on average and played a bunch more later. He even started a few. Yeah he didn't stick with it because it wasn't working. I never said he was brought in to be an starter. He was a vet, he knew Skiles system and he was a FA so it also had an positive affect on the salary cap.

 

What does quitting have to do with development? Everything. How in the hell do you develop anything if you're just going to quit in the beginning or even have that mindset? I can understand if it was year two or three but this was in first 2-3 months.

 

Vogel seems to have figured out how to use EP. Last month or two he's been playing some of his best basketball. He had Vuch playing some of the best defense he has played in his career.

 

I'm starting to feel like I'm being trolled here. Okay, yes. He traded Harris to play Ersan...as a backup, playing backup minutes, behind Aaron Gordon. You said he didn't trade Harris to play AG, so I pointed out that Ersan played only backup minutes, and Aaron's minutes went up to starter levels after the trade. So, yeah, he didn't trade for a guy he never ever used. Shame on him, I guess. And he didn't start getting a ton of minutes later. He stayed a backup until the end of the season. Ersan did start four games...at the end of the season...when Aaron Gordon was hurt. Would you rather Skiles had started Nicholson?

 

As for quitting and development: Yeah, he quit. So, at that point, he wasn't interested in coaching this team at all, at least on some level. But you make it out as though he quit because he didn't want to develop players, like he wanted to quit after 3 months - actually six months after getting the job, but I see your point - because he wasn't interested in a team he had to develop. But literally nothing that we know even hints that that was part of the rift between him and Hennigan. And everything we know says that the rift between him and management is why he wanted to quit. You're on here pretending that Skiles wanted to replace all of our young guys with vets, but we have no evidence of that. I've been hearing that same song from anti-Skiles people from before he ever got the job. It made no sense then; it makes no sense now. If you don't like Skiles, fine. But don't invent reasons not to like him. That's intellectually dishonest.

 

And yes, EP is playing well. And Vuc's defense looks better. The team defense is in the toilet, though. And EP's 'great' play hasn't resulted in the team getting better. And his defense is still pretty bad. For most of the season he was just as much garbage as he was last year. He's playing well now because he's not being asked to win. He's not being asked to play within a system. Once you ask him to do either of those things, the problems will come back out, where he gambles too much on D and he can't play off-ball on offense. That's why Skiles didn't want him, because his style of play - and personality - is not conducive to winning.

[Magicman28 295]

I'm starting to feel like I'm being trolled here. Okay, yes. He traded Harris to play Ersan...as a backup, playing backup minutes, behind Aaron Gordon. You said he didn't trade Harris to play AG, so I pointed out that Ersan played only backup minutes, and Aaron's minutes went up to starter levels after the trade. So, yeah, he didn't trade for a guy he never ever used. Shame on him, I guess. And he didn't start getting a ton of minutes later. He stayed a backup until the end of the season. Ersan did start four games...at the end of the season...when Aaron Gordon was hurt. Would you rather Skiles had started Nicholson?

 

As for quitting and development: Yeah, he quit. So, at that point, he wasn't interested in coaching this team at all, at least on some level. But you make it out as though he quit because he didn't want to develop players, like he wanted to quit after 3 months - actually six months after getting the job, but I see your point - because he wasn't interested in a team he had to develop. But literally nothing that we know even hints that that was part of the rift between him and Hennigan. And everything we know says that the rift between him and management is why he wanted to quit. You're on here pretending that Skiles wanted to replace all of our young guys with vets, but we have no evidence of that. I've been hearing that same song from anti-Skiles people from before he ever got the job. It made no sense then; it makes no sense now. If you don't like Skiles, fine. But don't invent reasons not to like him. That's intellectually dishonest.

 

And yes, EP is playing well. And Vuc's defense looks better. The team defense is in the toilet, though. And EP's 'great' play hasn't resulted in the team getting better. And his defense is still pretty bad. For most of the season he was just as much garbage as he was last year. He's playing well now because he's not being asked to win. He's not being asked to play within a system. Once you ask him to do either of those things, the problems will come back out, where he gambles too much on D and he can't play off-ball on offense. That's why Skiles didn't want him, because his style of play - and personality - is not conducive to winning.

 

 

Lol alright man. I can't even because your in constant conflict within your own posts. You're literally arguing with yourself. Correcting yourself. Back tracking....It's giving me a headache.

 

For the record I have no personal reason to dislike Skiles. He was not right for the job and it set us back. That is all.

 

I didn't invent anything.

Martins of all people said this.

[Justin Jaudon 221]

Skiles was better for Mario. Skiles was very bad for payton. Skiles was better at seeing something not work and change it. Skiles was better at using odd lineups to force a mismatch. Skiles also inherited a roster where the top 7 players had been playing together for a year already.

 

Vogel was worse for Mario. Vogel was very good for payton. Vogel was bad about shifting strategy. Vogel attempted to resolve issues with weak imagination (i.e. this isn't working, what if we start green/augustin and bench Gordon/payton). But Vogel inherited a roster where something like 60% of the minutes were being replaced by new players.

 

Vogel tried to coach this team using the same strategies as he has for years. He wasn't prepared to coach a new team and learn to play a more versatile brand of basketball. He's admitted as much. I have more faith in Vogel long term than I would for skiles (because skiles burns guys out). I don't know if he'd be better this past year. I don't think we trade for Ibaka. I think there's a reasonable chance we end up with Andrew Bogut as a backup center and resign Jennings. I think we end up trading Oladipo regardless.

 

I agree with pretty much all of this, except the last part. I doubt we trade Oladipo if Skiles stays. It's possible, but I think by the end of the season Skiles really liked Dipo, because he was the only guy who played hard on both ends of the floor. Honestly, Skiles seemed to be content with Dipo/Fournier at 2/3. Also, I doubt we resign Jennings if he stays, because Skiles pretty clearly wanted an upgrade at PG, and he had months to see - and clearly agreed - that Jennings wasn't that. I do think we could have ended up with Bogut, which is not really a terrible thing as a backup center. No worse than paying Biyombo what we did, for sure. My guess, if Skiles is still around, is we end up with Dellavedova or Lin, because I'm assuming it would take an agreement to get a PG to get him to stay. Other than that, I doubt the there is as much turnover, which probably would have been a good thing.

[Fultz4thewin 2,464]

I agree with pretty much all of this, except the last part. I doubt we trade Oladipo if Skiles stays. It's possible, but I think by the end of the season Skiles really liked Dipo, because he was the only guy who played hard on both ends of the floor. Honestly, Skiles seemed to be content with Dipo/Fournier at 2/3. Also, I doubt we resign Jennings if he stays, because Skiles pretty clearly wanted an upgrade at PG, and he had months to see - and clearly agreed - that Jennings wasn't that. I do think we could have ended up with Bogut, which is not really a terrible thing as a backup center. No worse than paying Biyombo what we did, for sure. My guess, if Skiles is still around, is we end up with Dellavedova or Lin, because I'm assuming it would take an agreement to get a PG to get him to stay. Other than that, I doubt the there is as much turnover, which probably would have been a good thing.

 

I think we trade dipo regardless of who is in charge. we went with the cheaper option in Fournier.

[Justin Jaudon 221]

Lol alright man. I can't even because your in constant conflict within your own posts. You're literally arguing with yourself. Correcting yourself. Back tracking....It's giving me a headache.

 

For the record I have no personal reason to dislike Skiles. He was not right for the job and it set us back. That is all.

 

Cool. For the record, I never contradicted myself. Not arguing with myself. Not backtracking.

 

I've maintained throughout that there's no reason to see Skiles as against developing guys. As evidence, I said that he developed Dipo, Evan, Mario, and AG, and that in pushing for a trade of Harris he freed up minutes to develop AG. You said he traded Harris to play Ersan. I pointed out that Ersan didn't play as much as Harris or AG, was brought in as a backup. No contradiction here. No correcting myself. No need.

 

You said that Skiles' wanting to quit was evidence that he didn't want to develop players. I pointed out how that was inconsistent with the facts we have, that Skiles wanting to quit was more likely due to disagreements with Hennigan, particularly about Payton. No contradiction, no correction.

 

You said that Vogel was all about development, I pointed out that Vogel has been worse for Mario than Skiles was for Payton, that he made Gordon regress by trying to develop him as a SF, and that Payton's 'development' has been a ruse because much like his rookie season, he isn't being asked to win or even play within a system. No contradiction, no correction.

 

You want to be done with this conversation, fine. But don't pretend its for any other reason than you're tired of defending your flawed, hyperbolic statements.

[Fultz4thewin 2,464]

I do think we would have traded harris regardless.

 

but I think the limitations placed on the trade screwed us.

[Magicman28 295]

Cool. For the record, I never contradicted myself. Not arguing with myself. Not backtracking.

 

I've maintained throughout that there's no reason to see Skiles as against developing guys. As evidence, I said that he developed Dipo, Evan, Mario, and AG, and that in pushing for a trade of Harris he freed up minutes to develop AG. You said he traded Harris to play Ersan. I pointed out that Ersan didn't play as much as Harris or AG, was brought in as a backup. No contradiction here. No correcting myself. No need.

 

You said that Skiles' wanting to quit was evidence that he didn't want to develop players. I pointed out how that was inconsistent with the facts we have, that Skiles wanting to quit was more likely due to disagreements with Hennigan, particularly about Payton. No contradiction, no correction.

 

You said that Vogel was all about development, I pointed out that Vogel has been worse for Mario than Skiles was for Payton, that he made Gordon regress by trying to develop him as a SF, and that Payton's 'development' has been a ruse because much like his rookie season, he isn't being asked to win or even play within a system. No contradiction, no correction.

 

You want to be done with this conversation, fine. But don't pretend its for any other reason than you're tired of defending your flawed, hyperbolic statements.

 

Martins said today that Skiles had no patience and had conversations with him and then talked about how player development is so important.

 

Im not inventing anything. The man quit, Rob was against it, and Martins had to converse with Skiles numerous of times because of his lack of patience by his own words.

 

It's not a personal vendetta. It's a fact admitted by everyone but you.

[Justin Jaudon 221]

I think we trade dipo regardless of who is in charge. we went with the cheaper option in Fournier.

 

Like I said, it's possible. I still think it was a mistake, because I think Dipo is worth his new contract, and we need two-way players. He's playing in the worst possible situation (asked to be a jump-shooter almost exclusively; never gets to make plays with the ball, never gets to shoot that nice mid-range pull-up he's so good at) yet he's played solid his first year there. Improved his %s from basically everywhere. His defense has regressed a tiny bit, again, but I don't think that would have happened under Skiles.

[Justin Jaudon 221]

Martins said today that Skiles had no patience and had conversations with him and then talked about how player development is so important.

 

Im not inventing anything. The man quit, Rob was against it, and Martins had to converse with Skiles numerous of times because of his lack of patience by his own words.

 

It's not a personal vendetta. It's a fact admitted by everyone but you.

 

Can I have a source for that Martins comment? Looking for it, can't find it. What I heard yesterday from Martins sounded like he was saying Skiles had concerns about Rob's ability as a GM.

[Fultz4thewin 2,464]

Like I said, it's possible. I still think it was a mistake, because I think Dipo is worth his new contract, and we need two-way players. He's playing in the worst possible situation (asked to be a jump-shooter almost exclusively; never gets to make plays with the ball, never gets to shoot that nice mid-range pull-up he's so good at) yet he's played solid his first year there. Improved his %s from basically everywhere. His defense has regressed a tiny bit, again, but I don't think that would have happened under Skiles.

 

I need time to figure out oladipo because my hesitance comes from not knowing if it's worth paying a guy 4/84 to put up 16/3/3 on streaky shooting when you know you can usually find a Courtney lee type guy to put up 10/3/2 on solid shooting for 4/48.

 

stepping back, I don't know if Fournier is worth his contract either. It was definitely a value signing based on the market. and you pay a little bit for what he could be vs what he actually is. so it was fine in the context of last summer but I don't know if I'd pay big money for marginal guys.

[Magicman28 295]

Can I have a source for that Martins comment? Looking for it, can't find it. What I heard yesterday from Martins sounded like he was saying Skiles had concerns about Rob's ability as a GM.

 

 

He was on Mike Bianchi's show. Mike specifically asked him after talking about Perry being fired and creating a culture and is that what Skiles was trying to do. Martins immediate response was and I quote, "Yeah look, Scott had no patience." He then immediately said how he met with Skiles numerous of times about it but Skiles time line was shorter than theirs. He finishes the Skiles talk with again saying, "He had no patience." Then Martins talked about developing players is such of an huge importance with young players. He went on to talk about the job Frank did in Indiana.