Magicman28 295 Report post Posted November 13, 2016 Actually after his good game against Washington Hezonja got 21 minutes in the very next game against Chicago, had a +/- of -27 and was 4/13, 1-6 from three point range. Next game against Minnesota he got 14 minutes and did very little, 1-4 from 3 point range. He got benched after those two games, and was actually given more playing time than his season average in the game after his good Washington outing. So your characterization above is just wrong. Good job ignoring him going 4-8 from the field in that same Minnesota game, 2-2 from the free throw line, and scoring 11 points in 14 minutes. He got benched right after that game. Seems like the only thing you look at is 3 pointers. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fultz4thewin 2,464 Report post Posted November 13, 2016 Actually after his good game against Washington Hezonja got 21 minutes in the very next game against Chicago, had a +/- of -27 and was 4/13, 1-6 from three point range. Next game against Minnesota he got 14 minutes and did very little, 1-4 from 3 point range. He got benched after those two games, and was actually given more playing time than his season average in the game after his good Washington outing. So your characterization above is just wrong. Honest question that i don't know the answer to. It's appropriate to discount good play in garbage time because the teams are mostly just playing out the rest of the game. Against Chicago hezonja had a really good second quarter where he went 4/4 and had 9 points. Then in garbage time he went 0/5. So do we ignore garbage time entirely and act like it didn't happen because it's not a real game? Or do we only discount positive things that happen because the lineups are usually end of bench guys and you're expected to perform against them? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Magicman28 295 Report post Posted November 13, 2016 Honest question that i don't know the answer to. It's appropriate to discount good play in garbage time because the teams are mostly just playing out the rest of the game. Against Chicago hezonja had a really good second quarter where he went 4/4 and had 9 points. Then in garbage time he went 0/5. So do we ignore garbage time entirely and act like it didn't happen because it's not a real game? Or do we only discount positive things that happen because the lineups are usually end of bench guys and you're expected to perform against them? Nah see we ignore defense because it isn't sexy and we ignore ball movement because it doesn't show up in the stat sheets AND we ignore your point. We just pay attention to 3's. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fultz4thewin 2,464 Report post Posted November 13, 2016 Nah see we ignore defense because it isn't sexy and we ignore ball movement because it doesn't show up in the stat sheets AND we ignore your point. We just pay attention to 3's. I'm not making a point. I don't know the specific reason why we discount garbage time. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ibn Battuta 127 Report post Posted November 13, 2016 Honest question that i don't know the answer to. It's appropriate to discount good play in garbage time because the teams are mostly just playing out the rest of the game. Against Chicago hezonja had a really good second quarter where he went 4/4 and had 9 points. Then in garbage time he went 0/5. So do we ignore garbage time entirely and act like it didn't happen because it's not a real game? Or do we only discount positive things that happen because the lineups are usually end of bench guys and you're expected to perform against them? If we are evaluating a single player then we should evaluate what that players does in the minutes he is given. But why cant we discount garbage time minutes while at the same time premium-ize "winning" minutes (for lack of better term)? That would seem the most fair to me: you played really well in garbage time minutes as we expected you to so good job and keep your head in the game (discount), or you played decent during crunch time but you made winning plays (premium) against xyz team which led to abc outcome. Context matters in every situation so why not apply it this way too? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JJZFL 619 Report post Posted November 13, 2016 Good job ignoring him going 4-8 from the field in that same Minnesota game, 2-2 from the free throw line, and scoring 11 points in 14 minutes. He got benched right after that game. Seems like the only thing you look at is 3 pointers. He played half the time in the first half when it mattered and did nothing. Everything you said was during garbage time in the second half. I don't look at that. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fultz4thewin 2,464 Report post Posted November 13, 2016 If we are evaluating a single player then we should evaluate what that players does in the minutes he is given. But why cant we discount garbage time minutes while at the same time premium-ize "winning" minutes (for lack of better term)? That would seem the most fair to me: you played really well in garbage time minutes as we expected you to so good job and keep your head in the game (discount), or you played decent during crunch time but you made winning plays (premium) against xyz team which led to abc outcome. Context matters in every situation so why not apply it this way too? It definitely should. And generally its easy to review when a player plays bad early but great late in a blowout. But how do we handle a game where the player played great when the game mattered but badly when the game didn't matter? Do we completely throw out all garbage time action? Or do we just throw out what might skew data positively? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ibn Battuta 127 Report post Posted November 13, 2016 It definitely should. And generally its easy to review when a player plays bad early but great late in a blowout. But how do we handle a game where the player played great when the game mattered but badly when the game didn't matter? Do we completely throw out all garbage time action? Or do we just throw out what might skew data positively? Great questions. If it were up to me, specifically measuring young players, you have to compare to the learning curve i.e. Are they making the same mistakes and why are they not learning from it? Maybe they are making "new" mistakes and how can we propose a new solution? It has to build towards something bigger eventually so there needs to be some kind of growth stick. WRT to Hezonja I'm just not seeing a growth in terms of being at the correct spot on the floor defensively which is really hampering his ability to stay on the floor. Rudez is awful but the one thing he knew was where to be defensively. And when he was in both times the team stayed in the game. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fan for too long 2 531 Report post Posted November 13, 2016 Great questions. If it were up to me, specifically measuring young players, you have to compare to the learning curve i.e. Are they making the same mistakes and why are they not learning from it? Maybe they are making "new" mistakes and how can we propose a new solution? It has to build towards something bigger eventually so there needs to be some kind of growth stick. WRT to Hezonja I'm just not seeing a growth in terms of being at the correct spot on the floor defensively which is really hampering his ability to stay on the floor. Rudez is awful but the one thing he knew was where to be defensively. And when he was in both times the team stayed in the game. Are you referring to that blow by by Hood? Rudez really looked good there hahahaha Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ibn Battuta 127 Report post Posted November 13, 2016 Are you referring to that blow by by Hood? Rudez really looked good there hahahaha If you want to isolate one play then be my guest. Based on +/- Rudez was a net positive so when he was in the game the team didn't give up as many points. Also Rodney Hood is a pretty fast player; are you saying Hezonja would've contained him??? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fan for too long 2 531 Report post Posted November 13, 2016 No I'm saying the +/- is a bad stat to determine the positive impact of a single player and that Frankenstein moves quicker than rudez Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JJZFL 619 Report post Posted November 13, 2016 No I'm saying the +/- is a bad stat to determine the positive impact of a single player and that Frankenstein moves quicker than rudez Frankenstein played point in college. Dude had some moves. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
