MVP Race

[Trey Time 186]

Wade is far from one of the best defenders in the league and Kobe is like 38 with bad knees and broken fingers, not the elite scorer he was 4-5 years ago.

 

I was referring to Kobe from a career standpoint. Of course that has nothing to do with MVP, but he is obviously one on the best scorers ever.

[BMP 424]

I was referring to Kobe from a career standpoint. Of course that has nothing to do with MVP, but he is obviously one on the best scorers ever.

 

His argument about Wade being a great defender was that he "shut down" Kobe for 5 minutes. . . because of what Kobe used to be.

[Sabian Jackson 0]

His argument about Wade being a great defender was that he "shut down" Kobe for 5 minutes. . . because of what Kobe used to be.

 

 

Kobe has still proved this season he has what it takes to score at will. Obviously he isn't as good as he used to be, but I believe I pointed that out anyway. Just because Kobe isn't as good, doesn't detract from the fact that Kobe is a great scorer and a guy most teams would choose to go to if they needed a score (If they had him on their team.) For you to deny Wade is a great defender is madness, and the only reason you could argue he isn't a great defender, is if you asked him to defend centers or big forwards.

[Secretly Space Jesus 670]

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Wade is a below average man-defender and an above average help defender who leaves his man too often to pursue steals and blocks. You only think he's a good defender, pathetic man-animal, because those blocks and steals he gets show up in highlights, not the 80% of his attempts that fail and lead to open shots.

 

But given that you're discussing man defense, even that point is irrelevant.

 

Pathetic fleshling, it is remarkable how far you're contorting yourself to argue the inarguable. There is simply no rational argument beyond "it's a nice story" to put forth that Derrick Rose has been the league's most valuable player in 2010-2011. None.

 

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[Sabian Jackson 0]

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Wade is a below average man-defender and an above average help defender who leaves his man too often to pursue steals and blocks. You only think he's a good defender, pathetic man-animal, because those blocks and steals he gets show up in highlights, not the 80% of his attempts that fail and lead to open shots.

 

But given that you're discussing man defense, even that point is irrelevant.

 

Pathetic fleshling, it is remarkable how far you're contorting yourself to argue the inarguable. There is simply no rational argument beyond "it's a nice story" to put forth that Derrick Rose has been the league's most valuable player in 2010-2011. None.

 

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I'm glad you know why I say these things. Makes me feel a lot better. It also means the whole forum is irrelevant because you know exactly what everyone means and says.

 

HEY EVERYONE, ITS OK, DOMS GOT THIS. WE DON'T NEED TO SAY WHAT WE THINK ANYMORE BECAUSE HE "KNOWS".

[Secretly Space Jesus 670]

I'm glad you know why I say these things. Makes me feel a lot better. It also means the whole forum is irrelevant because you know exactly what everyone means and says.

 

HEY EVERYONE, ITS OK, DOMS GOT THIS. WE DON'T NEED TO SAY WHAT WE THINK ANYMORE BECAUSE HE "KNOWS".

 

 

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Ok, pathetic sub-creature.

 

What point then were you trying to make, if not that Rose is more deserving of MVP because he's guarded by supposedly great defenders like Wade when you said:

 

I also think that people like Rose sometimes have to contend with being defended by or defending players like Wade. We all know Wade is one of the best defenders in the league

 

You have repeatedly accused Xenu of nitpicking. This charge is inaccurate. Your problem, fleshling, is that you build your arguments on foundations of half-baked ideas and false truths, and all mighty Xenu, or anyone else, needs to do to annihilate any argument you seem to come up with is point out how ridiculous the foundations of those arguments are, because just like with one of your Teegeeackian buildings, if the foundation is removed, the building collapses.

 

The fact is that if one adjusts for minutes played and for changes in league efficiency averages, Rose's game stacks up almost identically to the year Allen Iverson had in 2001, except that Rose's efficiency compares to the current league average in a way that's actually worse than Iverson's did to the league in 2001.

 

But Xenu must admit: It continues to be adorable to watch you pathetic man-animals push and pull on your Thetan chains, but still believe yourselves to have free will.

 

Ha-ha!

 

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[Sabian Jackson 0]

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Ok, pathetic sub-creature.

 

What point then were you trying to make, if not that Rose is more deserving of MVP because he's guarded by supposedly great defenders like Wade when you said:

 

 

 

You have repeatedly accused Xenu of nitpicking. This charge is inaccurate. Your problem, fleshling, is that you build your arguments on foundations of half-baked ideas and false truths, and all mighty Xenu, or anyone else, needs to do to annihilate any argument you seem to come up with is point out how ridiculous the foundations of those arguments are, because just like with one of your Teegeeackian buildings, if the foundation is removed, the building collapses.

 

The fact is that if one adjusts for minutes played and for changes in league efficiency averages, Rose's game stacks up almost identically to the year Allen Iverson had in 2001, except that Rose's efficiency compares to the current league average in a way that's actually worse than Iverson's did to the league in 2001.

 

But Xenu must admit: It continues to be adorable to watch you pathetic man-animals push and pull on your Thetan chains, but still believe yourselves to have free will.

 

Ha-ha!

 

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I think its more the fact that you basically told me that I think Wade is a good defender because I watch highlights and see his blocks/steals.

 

I did not once say Rose deserves it because he has to contend with players like Wade on a nightly basis. I said that it is a contributing factor. Obviously this is up for debate, and I can see you disagree. I do not really care either way whether you agree or disagree to be honest, I was simply stating that I believe this is a factor which should affect an MVP choice, whereas you do not.

 

You're problem is that you seem to think arguments have to have proof rather than a point being an interpretation of watching games. Stats are not everything, and the idea of one person being a better or worse defender is a highly debatable point. Intangibles are different to measure and quantify, and the weightings put on them differ from person to person. However, you seem to think that because you disagree, the person with that viewpoint is simply wrong.

 

And I do accuse you of nitpicking, because you do. I could, if I wanted to waste the time, point to a number of posts where you have basically made a point based on someone saying one thing in their post which may or may not be quite right. You then spend a while critisizing them for saying that, and ultimately conclude that anything they have to say is wrong simply because they said one or two things once.

 

There are also lots of rational reasons why Rose is an MVP. You may disagree, or you may not. Just because you disagree, doesn't mean they aren't rational.

[Secretly Space Jesus 670]

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It's sad watching this. It really is. It's almost enough to make me pity a Teegeeackian. Almost.

 

I think its more the fact that you basically told me that I think Wade is a good defender because I watch highlights and see his blocks/steals.

 

Given that you've presented no reason why you think Wade IS a good man-defender, and there are dozens of reasons to suggest he isn't, Xenu merely chose to assume that you believed Wade was a good defender for the reason that you were ill-informed rather than just wrong. Mighty Xenu will not give you the benefit of the doubt in the future, and your Galactic Leader apologizes for having done so now.

 

I did not once say Rose deserves it because he has to contend with players like Wade on a nightly basis. I said that it is a contributing factor. Obviously this is up for debate, and I can see you disagree. I do not really care either way whether you agree or disagree to be honest, I was simply stating that I believe this is a factor which should affect an MVP choice, whereas you do not.

 

If you're going to act pissy because I didn't write "among other things" in my posts when saying you believe something that you've stated that you believe, then frankly, Xenu doesn't know what to say. Your ability to add context where none exists and then attack that context as proof you've been slighted is simply stunning.

 

You're problem is that you seem to think arguments have to have proof rather than a point being an interpretation of watching games. Stats are not everything, and the idea of one person being a better or worse defender is a highly debatable point. Intangibles are different to measure and quantify, and the weightings put on them differ from person to person. However, you seem to think that because you disagree, the person with that viewpoint is simply wrong.

 

First of all: Arguments ABSOLUTELY have to have proof, you insufferable man-ape. You mistake Xenu's assertion that you need evidence to mean that you need quantitative evidence. Xenu has never asserted that, nor would he, since such an assertion is ignorant, ridiculous, and impossible to enforce in a meaningful way. Eye-witness reports of a crime aren't quantitative, but they still have validity.

 

But they also are subject to scrutiny and questioning, a fact that you seem to be unable or unwilling to grasp. If a witness testifies that he or she saw something, and it can be proven that his/her description of events don't match reality, that matters.

 

You have made multiple assertions about Rose and Howard based on the things you claim to have observed from watching them play. The problem is that there is evidence that proves your assertions are absolute garbage, and they have been stated multiple times in this thread by multiple posters. Your unwillingness to understand those points and/or adjust your viewpoint to meet new information is your own pathetic failing, sub-creature. Whether or not Great Xenu is close-minded, as you seem quasar-bent on implying, is irrelevant, because the facts support Xenu's opinion.

 

It isn't close-minded for one to refuse to believe that 2+2 might equal 8.

 

And I do accuse you of nitpicking, because you do. I could, if I wanted to waste the time, point to a number of posts where you have basically made a point based on someone saying one thing in their post which may or may not be quite right. You then spend a while critisizing them for saying that, and ultimately conclude that anything they have to say is wrong simply because they said one or two things once.

 

Emphasis is Xenu's, pathetic sub-creature.

 

Frankly, Xenu is tired of your inane, pathetic and largely baseless accusations. If you want to argue that Xenu nitpicks without purpose, then as they say on this pathetic planet, man-up and prove it. You've made the accusation multiple times, and yet you've never even attempted to back it up with anything resembling evidence.

 

So either find proof of your accusation or shut the hell up about it. It's pathetic, even for a Teegeeackian, and your attempts to use those accusations as a crutch to distract from how little support you have for your "Rose is MVP" position is both transparent and ridiculous.

 

There are also lots of rational reasons why Rose is an MVP. You may disagree, or you may not. Just because you disagree, doesn't mean they aren't rational.

 

And yet you've failed to present a single one that wasn't easily refuted. If there are so many rational reasons, than provide them, and we'll discuss them.

 

You seem to confuse "I believe this" to mean it is both rational and that it must be accepted. The whole purpose of a discussion is to discuss disagreements. You just want everyone to agree with you, and when they don't, you whine about it, try to act like you're being picked on, and then hide behind everything just being your opinion that you're totally allowed to have.

 

The problem is that people disagree in discussions since that's largely the point, you're not actually being picked on, and if your opinion is that the sky is green, your opinion is wrong.

 

If you don't want people to think your opinion is stupid, don't post your opinions.

 

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[GhostAnime 50]

Anyone have any stats or quantitative data that talks about how a player plays defense? I'd be curious to see Rose in comparison to other stars.

[Sabian Jackson 0]

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It's sad watching this. It really is. It's almost enough to make me pity a Teegeeackian. Almost.

 

 

 

Given that you've presented no reason why you think Wade IS a good man-defender, and there are dozens of reasons to suggest he isn't, Xenu merely chose to assume that you believed Wade was a good defender for the reason that you were ill-informed rather than just wrong. Mighty Xenu will not give you the benefit of the doubt in the future, and your Galactic Leader apologizes for having done so now.

 

 

 

If you're going to act pissy because I didn't write "among other things" in my posts when saying you believe something that you've stated that you believe, then frankly, Xenu doesn't know what to say. Your ability to add context where none exists and then attack that context as proof you've been slighted is simply stunning.

 

 

 

First of all: Arguments ABSOLUTELY have to have proof, you insufferable man-ape. You mistake Xenu's assertion that you need evidence to mean that you need quantitative evidence. Xenu has never asserted that, nor would he, since such an assertion is ignorant, ridiculous, and impossible to enforce in a meaningful way. Eye-witness reports of a crime aren't quantitative, but they still have validity.

 

But they also are subject to scrutiny and questioning, a fact that you seem to be unable or unwilling to grasp. If a witness testifies that he or she saw something, and it can be proven that his/her description of events don't match reality, that matters.

 

You have made multiple assertions about Rose and Howard based on the things you claim to have observed from watching them play. The problem is that there is evidence that proves your assertions are absolute garbage, and they have been stated multiple times in this thread by multiple posters. Your unwillingness to understand those points and/or adjust your viewpoint to meet new information is your own pathetic failing, sub-creature. Whether or not Great Xenu is close-minded, as you seem quasar-bent on implying, is irrelevant, because the facts support Xenu's opinion.

 

It isn't close-minded for one to refuse to believe that 2+2 might equal 8.

 

 

 

Emphasis is Xenu's, pathetic sub-creature.

 

Frankly, Xenu is tired of your inane, pathetic and largely baseless accusations. If you want to argue that Xenu nitpicks without purpose, then as they say on this pathetic planet, man-up and prove it. You've made the accusation multiple times, and yet you've never even attempted to back it up with anything resembling evidence.

 

So either find proof of your accusation or shut the hell up about it. It's pathetic, even for a Teegeeackian, and your attempts to use those accusations as a crutch to distract from how little support you have for your "Rose is MVP" position is both transparent and ridiculous.

 

 

 

And yet you've failed to present a single one that wasn't easily refuted. If there are so many rational reasons, than provide them, and we'll discuss them.

 

You seem to confuse "I believe this" to mean it is both rational and that it must be accepted. The whole purpose of a discussion is to discuss disagreements. You just want everyone to agree with you, and when they don't, you whine about it, try to act like you're being picked on, and then hide behind everything just being your opinion that you're totally allowed to have.

 

The problem is that people disagree in discussions since that's largely the point, you're not actually being picked on, and if your opinion is that the sky is green, your opinion is wrong.

 

If you don't want people to think your opinion is stupid, don't post your opinions.

 

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I have, on a number of times in this whole thread, acknowledged points of view, and I'm perfectly happy to engage in a discussion about them. Just because I don't care whether someone thinks I'm wrong or not, doesn't mean I don't want those points to be discussed. The proportion of people who disagree or agree is largely irrelevant. I also have

 

You're assertion that the two arguments, Rose is not the MVP and that the sky is not green, are not comparable, since they are vastly different statements. A definition of a colour is a defintion and is not open to debate, so when something is that colour, it either is or isn't. To say that Rose not being the MVP is fact, is just plain wrong. You may think he is not, and you are entitled to that opinion. But to say something is fact when the whole point of it, is that it's an opinion based thing, is idiotic. Whether some team won a championship, or scored more points than another player/team or didn't, this is also a fact. But whether they deserve it or not, that is a debate or an opinion based discussion.

 

If I say I think Rose is the MVP for reasons X, Y and Z, and you don't think these reasons are good enough or strong enough, it doesn't mean I am wrong, it just means you disagree. Stop dealing in absolutes when it is a discussion. There is no right or wrong here genereally, unless I say Rose scored 50 ppg when he is averaging only 25. If I say, for example, he is the main reason the Bulls are playing so well and are the number 1 seed, this is not "wrong", it is just different from what you may or may not think. This is something you seem to misunderstand. You may think there are more important things for this occurence, but that doesn't mean anything other than we interpret different things differently. I may think that the fact that he is the teams leader, which causes results which you or I have no idea about, is the main reason for their success. I do not need to justify nor quantify this. How exactly does one quantify "leadership" anyway? If you had paid attention to the whole debate you will see I have made a number of points and given reasons. Disagree with them by all means, but don't come round tell me I'm am wrong, as opposed to you just disagreeing.

 

I'm pretty sure I haven't said anyone else is wrong because they believe Howard is the MVP, I simply said I disagree. This is the reason for the debate, not you are wrong because I state this and this in absolute terms.

 

And to answer your statement about proving these accusations, I really cannot be bothered since I don't care at all whether you want the to be justified or not. It changes nothing, since even if I point out cases where you have, it will mean little to you, and won't make any difference. How about you just get over the fact that someone on the internet thinks this about your mannerism? Seriously. Who cares?

[Secretly Space Jesus 670]

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I have, on a number of times in this whole thread, acknowledged points of view, and I'm perfectly happy to engage in a discussion about them. Just because I don't care whether someone thinks I'm wrong or not, doesn't mean I don't want those points to be discussed. The proportion of people who disagree or agree is largely irrelevant. I also have

 

If you didn't care whether people thought you were wrong or not, you'd have not posted. Don't act blase when your the very existenceof your post proves you aren't.

 

You're assertion that the two arguments, Rose is not the MVP and that the sky is not green, are not comparable, since they are vastly different statements. A definition of a colour is a defintion and is not open to debate, so when something is that colour, it either is or isn't. To say that Rose not being the MVP is fact, is just plain wrong. You may think he is not, and you are entitled to that opinion. But to say something is fact when the whole point of it, is that it's an opinion based thing, is idiotic. Whether some team won a championship, or scored more points than another player/team or didn't, this is also a fact. But whether they deserve it or not, that is a debate or an opinion based discussion.

 

By this logic, you couldn't prove Great Xenu wrong if he were to suggest that Mike Miller was the MVP.

 

An opinion that doesn't stand up to scrutiny and evidence is wrong. I don't know why you seem bent on repeating the notion that this isn't true, but it just makes you look foolish.

 

If I say I think Rose is the MVP for reasons X, Y and Z, and you don't think these reasons are good enough or strong enough, it doesn't mean I am wrong, it just means you disagree. Stop dealing in absolutes when it is a discussion. There is no right or wrong here genereally, unless I say Rose scored 50 ppg when he is averaging only 25. If I say, for example, he is the main reason the Bulls are playing so well and are the number 1 seed, this is not "wrong", it is just different from what you may or may not think.

 

No, you're wrong, and Xenu is starting to wonder how you can maintain such an outlook into what he can only assume is some kind of functional adulthood.

 

It absolutely possible to establish right and wrong in a discussion. Stop with the "It's just my opinion" nonsense. It's stupid. It might be your opinion that Derrick Rose is the best point guard in the league, to ever play, that his tears cure rare forms of cancer and that he's the second coming. That those things are your opinion is irrelevant, and it certainly doesn't make those opinions unassailable. An opinion that exists in direct dispute of existing evidence is wrong.

 

Do you realize what would happen to the justice systems of Teegeeack if your notion of "Opinions can't be proven wrong" was made a legal precedent? Do you understand how insane that logic is?

 

This is something you seem to misunderstand. You may think there are more important things for this occurence, but that doesn't mean anything other than we interpret different things differently. I may think that the fact that he is the teams leader, which causes results which you or I have no idea about, is the main reason for their success. I do not need to justify nor quantify this. How exactly does one quantify "leadership" anyway? If you had paid attention to the whole debate you will see I have made a number of points and given reasons. Disagree with them by all means, but don't come round tell me I'm am wrong, as opposed to you just disagreeing.

 

You hedged a ton just now, but you almost made a declarative statement about why you think, or one of several reasons you think or whatever hedging I have to do to get you to stop acting like I'm picking on you, about why Rose is MVP due to his leadership. Congrats! You're almost ready to have an adult discussion.

 

Now BACK UP YOUR OPINION. WHY is Rose the leader of the team rather than their new coach? WHY is HIS leadership more significant than his new coach, or the defense, or Deng's resurgence, or the addition of a 20/10 big man.

 

You want Xenu to treat you like with the respect he gives to others but avoids giving you? EARN IT.

 

You keep implying that Xenu is incapable of respecting a position he disagrees with. That's ludicrous, and is an assumption you only have because Xenu sees no reason to respect, well, anything you've ever written on this board. However, Xenu has had disagreements with members of this board that he respects, in so much as Xenu could ever respect Teegeeackian man-ape, over topics ranging from basketball to American politics to religion to science, and any number of ancillary topics. The difference between those he respects and those who are like you is that those posters back their opinions up with evidence, both qualitiative and quantitative. You state an opinon, and you believe that's enough.

 

And since you mention leadership, if we can't limit ourselves to quantitative analysis and leadership matters so much, why wouldn't we give the MVP to the leader of the Spurs, who have a better record?

 

And to answer your statement about proving these accusations, I really cannot be bothered since I don't care at all whether you want the to be justified or not. It changes nothing, since even if I point out cases where you have, it will mean little to you, and won't make any difference. How about you just get over the fact that someone on the internet thinks this about your mannerism? Seriously. Who cares?

 

The obvious answer to this question, pathetic man-animal, is that you do, since you insist on bringing it up once a week. Xenu's point is that if you want to continue to make that accusation as a feable attempt to undercut Xenu's arguments, you should at least back it up with evidence.

 

Either that or Xenu can simply start claiming without evidence that you raped a baby. After all, if you are under no obligation to back up your statements with evidence, Lord Xenu sees little reason that anyone else should be obligated to do so.

 

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[Secretly Space Jesus 670]

Anyone have any stats or quantitative data that talks about how a player plays defense? I'd be curious to see Rose in comparison to other stars.

 

 

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If you are looking for a catch-all stat, then the answer is "no".

 

Synergy sports has a gargantuan amount of raw data that you can go through if you pay for the service. That data is incredibly useful, but it'd be a mistake to take it and compare it across teams, since a point guard with a good defensive center behind him will naturally look better in raw defensive data than a comparable player with a weak defensive center behind him.

 

If you're looking for just a quick way to judge, I'd recommend Defensive rating differential, or Team Drtg - Player Drtg. It is rough, and it tends overvalue defensive role players who play limited minutes, but comparing starters across the league it's decent, since you're not comparing how a player performs compared to the league, just how they perform in compared to their team's average.

 

Some will also swear by 82games and their On/Off court data, but I'm of the opinion that there is FAR too much noise in that data to use it in a practical manner. Some disagree though, so I should at least mention it.

 

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