Has SVG failed the Magic? OR Management? OR players?

[The Ryan Anderbads 27]

This is NOT a thread about the end of the world. This is a realistic basketball discussion about why we have NOT won a championship and why we are not showing championship form this season.

 

The question then defers to what has been the "real" problem that has not got us that championship and why we are looking mediocre this year. So what I'm evaluating is the 08-09 season and the 09-10 season and now the 50 games of this season. This is solely my opinion, and I am by no means stating as any of this to be "fact" or "right". Just trying to vent.

 

Before I go on I must say our 08-09 trip to the finals wass an absolute joke. Cleveland probably would have been swept or 4-2'ed at best by the lakers also. We beat Philly, KG-less celtics, and the LeCavaliers who had one player doing everything. We would have lost to boston if they had KG. Us having jameer is not nearly as much of an impact as Boston having KG. Rafer Alston was also playing about as good as jameer could have played anyways.

 

1. Is the problem SVG? Not entirely. Part of the blame does go to SVG but I would only say about 30% of it. SVG has dissapointed me over the years with numerous coaching decisions he has made with offensive schemes and playing time or lack thereof. Not playing bass in the boston series was a terrible mistake. I do not think SVG used Gortat properly at ALL. Gortat had offensive SKILLS. All SVG had Gortat doing was running around setting screens for everyone and "maybe" there would be a pass to him on a wide open roll to the basket for a dunk but that happened very rarely. Gortat I think could have been used as an offensive WEAPON. He has a better hook shot then Dwight AND better footwork. Why was the guy NEVER used as a primary option off the bench? It baffles me to this day to even think about what we could have done with him offensively. SVG has been a good defensive coach. The only real problem I'm having lately is him double teaming players who aren't even proving they can beat their own man 1on1? What the heck? Really dumb.

 

2. Is management the problem? 40% of blame goes to management. Otis has failed really hard I believe. I do like getting Jrich, but in the long run he is probably going to be moved next year which makes this a total fail if we do not win it all this year. Was hedo the right move? Only time will tell. As of right now I like it but that could change if Hedo doesn't recover from this injury and play the way he WAS playing pre-injury. I absolutely HATED getting rid of rashard who has done so much for us and was a good friend with a lot of the players and was just going through a slump. Arenas was an upgrade at backup PG but that's not hard to do when your backup is Chris Duhon. Rashard could have still helped our team. We have lost SOOOOO much depth after these trades in our frontcourt. Having Gortat/Bass/Anderson on the bench solidified us as one of the deepest frountcourt teams in the league. Now we just have Dwight playing 50 mins a game. God forbid Dwight gets injured then this whole forum will explode, and rightfully so Otis should get fired if that does happen because we will have lost our only hope of even competing in the playoffs if that did happen because we could have had Gortat to fall back on. That's all lost now. Getting rid of Courtney Lee was terrible. Getting rid of Ariza was terrible. Letting go of darko was terrible(just kidding). Ultimately, I believe we can not win a championship with Dwight as our primary offensive option AND the anchor of our defense. That is asking a lot of someone who isn't that skilled on the offensive end. Dwight is at his best when he is playing GREAT defense and cleaning up missed shots and rebounding everything. We need a GO-TO scorer or we will continue to fall short I believe every year. This falls on management to get that done, and bringing in guys past their prime(vince,gilbert,jrich) just isn't going to get it done I don't believe. Jrich has been a pleasant surprise though, if he stays more consistent then maybe just maybe this will be a great move, but nobody knows yet until the playoffs.

 

3. Are the players the problem? 30% of the blame goes to the players. Courtney Lee missed the layup. Last year Vince Carter choked really hard, including rashard and just about everyone on the team besides Dwight/Jameer in game 4 and 5. The players have NOT played to their fullest potential in big moments. Even our superstar, Dwight Howard has not lived up to his own hype. The players ultimately even make bad coaches look good or even bad management look good because they play beyond their "expected" numbers and produce. They really haven't done that in my opinion. If the players don't play "smart" then we will probably never beat a team like Boston or LA...and dare I say even Miami now(ugh). The players need to get the ball to dwight when he is wide open under the basket. Not the coaches...not the management. Playing with no energy after 2 days off for 3 quarters is inexcusable. Playing with no energy when we are trying to get BETTER as a team is inexcusable.

 

So, tell me what you think is the real problem - Coaching, management or the players?

[Fultz4thewin 2,464]

I disagree with a lot of your analysis.

 

I think SVG's record speaks for itself. He's developed players and always put them in a position to win.

 

I think you don't watch enough of Phoenix basketball. Gortat isn't performing as a world caliber player, he's getting easy looks courtesy of Nash. He's playing well but he's not an all star center like some around here would have you believe. Gortat isn't an offensive weapon, he's a good opportunist. He hits put backs, catches passes well, and runs the court well. He's similar to Tyson Chandler with New Orleans.

 

You can analyze management one of two ways. Hindsight, where you look at player success now. You can say Ariza is good now so we should have kept him. Gerald Wallace is good now so we should have signed him. Or, you can use the perspective of the time. Ariza was a player with a significant foot injury that had him play in only 35 games in 07-08. He was lanky and flashy but dumb and couldn't shoot. His most significant season with us had him averaging 9 points in 22 minutes per game for a 40 win team that was swept by detroit. He couldn't play SG for us and never played for SVG. Was the trade the best we could have gotten for Ariza? Well, what else was on the table?

 

Depth gets you nowhere in the playoffs. You only play 8 or 9 guys.

 

Courtney Lee was a dime a dozen sg. We made the right move trading him to gamble on Carter.

 

You're underselling Dwight. If he wants to be considered the top center in the NBA then he needs to excel on both ends.

 

J Rich isn't past his prime. one of his best years was last season.

 

We made these trades because our team had no energy. Carter and Lewis needed to go.

 

Lets do our analysis for this season after it's over. You're blasting the painting when only a few brush strokes have been made.

[FlawlessVictory 26]

Sorry to say, but...

 

 

Stan is like the Tony Dungy of the Magic.....we need a Jon Gruden now (for a year or 2 anyways).

[Miller4Prez66 545]

I disagree with a lot of your analysis.

 

I think SVG's record speaks for itself. He's developed players and always put them in a position to win.

 

I think you don't watch enough of Phoenix basketball. Gortat isn't performing as a world caliber player, he's getting easy looks courtesy of Nash. He's playing well but he's not an all star center like some around here would have you believe. Gortat isn't an offensive weapon, he's a good opportunist. He hits put backs, catches passes well, and runs the court well. He's similar to Tyson Chandler with New Orleans.

 

You can analyze management one of two ways. Hindsight, where you look at player success now. You can say Ariza is good now so we should have kept him. Gerald Wallace is good now so we should have signed him. Or, you can use the perspective of the time. Ariza was a player with a significant foot injury that had him play in only 35 games in 07-08. He was lanky and flashy but dumb and couldn't shoot. His most significant season with us had him averaging 9 points in 22 minutes per game for a 40 win team that was swept by detroit. He couldn't play SG for us and never played for SVG. Was the trade the best we could have gotten for Ariza? Well, what else was on the table?

 

Depth gets you nowhere in the playoffs. You only play 8 or 9 guys.

 

Courtney Lee was a dime a dozen sg. We made the right move trading him to gamble on Carter.

 

You're underselling Dwight. If he wants to be considered the top center in the NBA then he needs to excel on both ends.

 

J Rich isn't past his prime. one of his best years was last season.

 

We made these trades because our team had no energy. Carter and Lewis needed to go.

 

Lets do our analysis for this season after it's over. You're blasting the painting when only a few brush strokes have been made.

 

Pretty well said. This is mostly just overreacting because the team is in a down stretch.

 

I personally am not a huge fan of the trades, but I'm not gonna call out Otis until the playoffs are over. J-Rich isn't performing as well as some people think he is, but he is younger and more athletic than Vince was and the hope is he'll show up and make shots in the playoffs. Vince crumbled under the pressure last year. We also hope Hedo will play his best in big time playoff games like he did in 2009. His season that year was ultimately pretty disapointing compared to the one he had before, but starting in Game 7 at Boston he turned into a machine and was crucial in the ECF.

 

Arenas is obviously the biggest concern/question mark of all this. We've been linked to him from the day it was obvious his Wizards tenure was all but over because of his connections to Otis. So far this season (including his games in Washington), he's shooting horrible percentages and not really doing anything efficiently and we are taking on his big contract. Nobody knows if he will ever fit into his role as a bench player. He did average 29 ppg and was a big time scorer once, but it was on a high usage rate and he had full control of the offense, he'll NEVER get that here. Even if we happened to trade Jameer and hand him the starting job. The best we can hope for right now is Arenas turning into a Jason Terry/Jamal Crawford like sixth man. But at this point he is easily the worst player in our eight man rotation and gets up way too many shots for his own good, and is just awful from the free throw line. We'll see how Arenas progresses through the season and how he adapts before the playoffs. But I don't blame people for questioning him, we all knew he wasn't 100% before getting him.

 

Let's just see how the playoffs go. All we need is one guy to catch some fire to go along with Dwight to knock someone out. Hopefully we are totally healthy too.

 

Sorry to say, but...

 

 

Stan is like the Tony Dungy of the Magic.....we need a Jon Gruden now (for a year or 2 anyways).

 

This comparison makes no sense. Dungy and Stan are absolutely nothing alike. Dungy has always been a "nice guy" coach while SVG is a loud demanding coach. You're really just reaching hard for a comparison to make a point.

[FlawlessVictory 26]

This comparison makes no sense. Dungy and Stan are absolutely nothing alike. Dungy has always been a "nice guy" coach while SVG is a loud demanding coach. You're really just reaching hard for a comparison to make a point.

Ummm, that's not the comparison I'm making.

[Miller4Prez66 545]

Ummm, that's not the comparison I'm making.

 

I know exactly what you're attempting to say. You're attempting to compare the Bucs' failure to win a Super Bowl under Dungy to the Magic's lack of a championship under SVG. The two situations are nothing alike. Like I already said, those two men are polar opposites in personality and coaching style. They are two totally different sports, and their situations as teams are not the same.

 

Stan is not holding this team back. He's gotten the most out of our roster since getting here. We went to the NBA Finals with a starting back court of Courtney Lee and Rafer Alston. He's had us near the top of the league defensively year in and year out despite usually having Dwight surrounded by four guys who are largely considered below average defenders (except the occasional Mickael Pietrus or Matt Barnes). It's not his fault that Vince Carter crumbled under the pressure in the ECF and was awful. He didn't give Rashard Lewis a viral disease causing him to be all but worthless on offense. Our current struggles have more to do with new players still adjusting and adapting along with injuries. You don't make Stan a scapegoat for not having a championship and firing him when there is nobody out there that can seriously do a better job, and don't name someone like Larry Brown. Seriously...

[The Ryan Anderbads 27]

The reason why I'm asking some of these questions is not because I think our season is"over"

 

I'm more-so just concerned of the future of the Magic if we do not at least meet expectations this year.

 

Winning a championship is the expectation of the players/coaches/management but I don't think this squad is CHAMPIONSHIP bound right now.

 

We are a bit banged up and will probably make one more move so we could get back into championship form very quickly but this past week or so have been hard games too watch, even the games we have won besides the Cleveland game.

[FlawlessVictory 26]

I know exactly what you're attempting to say. You're attempting to compare the Bucs' failure to win a Super Bowl under Dungy to the Magic's lack of a championship under SVG. The two situations are nothing alike. Like I already said, those two men are polar opposites in personality and coaching style. They are two totally different sports, and their situations as teams are not the same.

Right, but my comparison has NOTHING to do with their coaching styles....that's idiotic. However, those two situations are EXACTLY alike. Dungy molded a pretty damn good team and brought years of playoff contention, NOT championship contention....the same can be said for Stan. Gruden comes in and with his little tweaks, renewed energy, and differentiating gameplans wins a championship with the same core team the VERY NEXT year.

 

Stan is not holding this team back. He's gotten the most out of our roster since getting here.

Did his "most" net us a championship?

 

We went to the NBA Finals with a starting back court of Courtney Lee and Rafer Alston. He's had us near the top of the league defensively year in and year out despite usually having Dwight surrounded by four guys who are largely considered below average defenders (except the occasional Mickael Pietrus or Matt Barnes).

 

Way to completely contradict yourself here. In our Finals run, Courtney Lee was and is now a clear above average defender....so was Pietrus. Last year the Barnes/Pietrus combo gave us toughness and two guys who could play one on one defense and at the very least "bother" an opposing team's best offensive player. Who do we currently have that can do that now?!

 

You don't make Stan a scapegoat for not having a championship and firing him when there is nobody out there that can seriously do a better job, and don't name someone like Larry Brown. Seriously...

Did I? I simply said we need our version of "Jon Gruden".....who that is, is completely up in the air.

[Miller4Prez66 545]

Right, but my comparison has NOTHING to do with their coaching styles....that's idiotic. However, those two situations are EXACTLY alike.

 

The situations are NOTHING alike. As someone who is every bit of a Bucs fan as a Magic fan, I remember Dungy and his ultimate downfall. He was too loyal to his offensive coaching staff that was horrible. The Bucs' offense during his days were just horrible. They couldn't score TDs on the road in the playoffs and it was just embarassing. I remember the 1999 NFC Championship game when the defense shut down the "Greatest Show on Turf" and the Shaun King led offense was non existent.

 

The Magic have been very good on both ends of the floor under SVG. The Bucs under Dungy had a great defense and a pathetic offense.

 

Did his "most" net us a championship?

 

What is your point? If he's getting the most out of what he has then it's absurd to criticize him for not doing more.

 

 

 

Way to completely contradict yourself here. In our Finals run, Courtney Lee was and is now a clear above average defender....so was Pietrus. Last year the Barnes/Pietrus combo gave us toughness and two guys who could play one on one defense and at the very least "bother" an opposing team's best offensive player. Who do we currently have that can do that now?!

 

C-Lee was an solid defender. I remember him having big problems with Kobe in the Finals and SVG not giving him as much burn as he got in the ECF. You really can't act like his defense was a big part of getting to the Finals Pietrus also couldn't guard Pierce in the ECF last year and gave a helping hand to that loss by constantly falling for those pump fakes. I would also like to say that Quentin Richardson is a pretty solid physical defender, he probably has the best size and strength of anyone on our team to guard LeBron. He did a better job on him than Hedo or J-Rich, though J-Rich didn't do that bad of a job when he was on him. LeBron was just on fire.

 

Did I? I simply said we need our version of "Jon Gruden".....who that is, is completely up in the air.

 

Well give us names then. You can't sit around and claim that SVG is not the answer and then not give us any answer yourself. There's nobody who is going to come in and do a better job than SVG is right now. Unless you somehow manage to pry away Phil Jackson or Greg Popovich.

 

It's also worth noting that Gruden totally ran the Bucs into the ground after winning the Super Bowl.

[The Ryan Anderbads 27]

I disagree with a lot of your analysis.

 

I think SVG's record speaks for itself. He's developed players and always put them in a position to win.

 

I think you don't watch enough of Phoenix basketball. Gortat isn't performing as a world caliber player, he's getting easy looks courtesy of Nash. He's playing well but he's not an all star center like some around here would have you believe. Gortat isn't an offensive weapon, he's a good opportunist. He hits put backs, catches passes well, and runs the court well. He's similar to Tyson Chandler with New Orleans.

 

SVG's record speaks for itself? So...Mike Brown is a great coach? Avery Johnson is a great coach? Brian Hill went 60-22 with the Magic in one season? Is he a great coach? I could go on and on with coaches with great records that don't have a RING. Sometimes....the PLAYERS make the coach. If not all the time. That's quite a bold statement to say that a record speaks for itself. Astonishing actually.

 

You are underselling Gortat's true skill just like SVG. Go watch some Polish national team videos and understand what kind of footwork and post moves this guy has. He has the "potential" to be a good offensive weapon is what I'm saying...and we didn't even try. If you are accepting Gortat reached his "peak" as an offensive player with us by running around setting screens and the rare dunk/put back... then I'm astonished as well.

[Miller4Prez66 545]

SVG's record speaks for itself? So...Mike Brown is a great coach? Avery Johnson is a great coach? Brian Hill went 60-22 with the Magic in one season? Is he a great coach? I could go on and on with coaches with great records that don't have a RING. Sometimes....the PLAYERS make the coach. If not all the time. That's quite a bold statement to say that a record speaks for itself. Astonishing actually.

 

You really think it is all players and nothing to do with SVG? Look at our starting five from our 2009 NBA Finals team. The four playing with Dwight were Rashard Lewis/Hedo Turkoglu/Courtney Lee/Rafer Alston. Are any of them great players? No, the only one to be named to an All Star team was Shard who has gone twice in a 10+ year NBA career, and he's never been a guy you can give the ball to in ISO situations and have him score at will. Stan has never had a guy who you can just give the ball to and have him break down defenses and score big on the perimeter to go with Dwight. The closest he had was a washed up Vince Carter who was inconsistent with it and was nowhere to be found when we needed him most. Stan brought in the spacing offensive system to give Dwight room to work with inside and shooters space to shoot from outside because he couldn't just give guys on the perimeter the ball and have them take over games offensively. People like to complain about shooting so many threes, but let's face it we don't have a LeBron, Kobe, Wade, Carmelo, etc. who can dominate games offensively on the perimeter. He's getting the most out of what we have had to work with. Dwight has never played with a legitimate #2 star and we still are contending for championships because of the offensive system allowing us to get the most out of what we have and his team defenses making us one of the league's top defenses year in and year out.

 

You are underselling Gortat's true skill just like SVG. Go watch some Polish national team videos and understand what kind of footwork and post moves this guy has. He has the "potential" to be a good offensive weapon is what I'm saying...and we didn't even try. If you are accepting Gortat reached his "peak" as an offensive player with us by running around setting screens and the rare dunk/put back... then I'm astonished as well.

 

Some Polish national videos don't translate to the NBA. I don't think Gortat has reached his peak as an offensive player, but his offense doesn't fit well next to Dwight. He plays too close to the basket and easily allows his man to play off him on Dwight. He's getting a chance to showcase himself in Phoenix and I'm happy for him. It just couldn't happen here.

[FlawlessVictory 26]

The situations are NOTHING alike. As someone who is every bit of a Bucs fan as a Magic fan, I remember Dungy and his ultimate downfall. He was too loyal to his offensive coaching staff that was horrible. The Bucs' offense during his days were just horrible. They couldn't score TDs on the road in the playoffs and it was just embarassing. I remember the 1999 NFC Championship game when the defense shut down the "Greatest Show on Turf" and the Shaun King led offense was non existent.

 

The Magic have been very good on both ends of the floor under SVG. The Bucs under Dungy had a great defense and a pathetic offense.

 

The comparison OBVIOUSLY cannot be made in just viewing the offense or the defense separately. You have to compare the TEAM and TEAM'S success or failures as a whole. Like you said, you can't compare other aspects due to being 2 different sports......the TEAM overall is another story, that IS viable for comparison.

 

 

What is your point? If he's getting the most out of what he has then it's absurd to criticize him for not doing more

 

We had the personnel and we had the oppurtunity to go further than we did. It was because of Stan's lone idiocies that cost this team a chance at not 1, but 2 titles.

 

 

C-Lee was an solid defender. I remember him having big problems with Kobe in the Finals and SVG not giving him as much burn as he got in the ECF.

 

Are you serious?! Who the **** doesn't have problems with Kobe??? Let's not forget that Lee was a ROOKIE playing on the biggest stage possible in his career and oh yeah, he had to go out there and defend the BEST player in the NBA by himself. What a slouch!

 

I would also like to say that Quentin Richardson is a pretty solid physical defender, he probably has the best size and strength of anyone on our team to guard LeBron. He did a better job on him than Hedo or J-Rich, though J-Rich didn't do that bad of a job when he was on him. LeBron was just on fire.

 

LOL!!!! Q = Championship

 

 

Well give us names then. You can't sit around and claim that SVG is not the answer and then not give us any answer yourself.

 

Sure I can. I'm a fan so I can speculate and say whatever the hell I feel about my team. I'm obligated to do something because YOU say so?! LOL

 

There's nobody who is going to come in and do a better job than SVG is right now. Unless you somehow manage to pry away Phil Jackson or Greg Popovich.

 

Oh I'm sorry. I didn't realize you were a psychic this WHOLE time! By bad bro!!!

 

It's also worth noting that Gruden totally ran the Bucs into the ground after winning the Super Bowl.

 

This is the only smart thing you've said yet, however, at least we got that championship.