Hedo vs Vince: the best hyprocrite Oscar goes to Magic fans!

[Mat 4]

Vince is better.

 

In my opinion Hedo deserves the 10 million contract.

 

The magic did a wonderful movement in my opinion. I hate to lose Lee, but Vince can do the same things that Hedo does, and maybe more consistant. he is so far more thletic, and if he is focussed he can be a much better defender.

 

For me Hedo deserves the 10 mil but not for 5 years. He

[Kramer 0]

quote:

Originally posted by KillingInTheNameOf:

I can't answer this for the board, for myself...

 

It's about years, not $.

 

Thank God another person understands. Turk is better off signing a 6 year 45 million dollar deal than he is a 4 year 36 million. Less annual salary but more gaurenteed employment

[magicfan83 23]

There is no hypocrisy in the position that paying Vince is better than paying Hedo. It has less to do with the amount of money and significantly more to do with the length of the contract. I think 99% of the forum would be willing to pay Hedo 10 million for the next two years, but no one wants give him that for the next 5 years. The contract Otis offered for 36 million over 4 years is very fair, and I think most forum members would have accepted that and welcomed him back. Then both Hedo's and Lewis' contract would come off the books at the same time allowing us major cap room to pair someone with Dwight. Hedo declined the offer, then Otis made the move. If Vince fades, he doesn't hamstring us past next year. If Hedo declines, his contract hurts us for 5 years, and may affect our ability to extend Dwight.

 

To the new guy...

 

We'll have plenty of open 3s. Penetration and double teams off of Dwight will still be there as will the open looks on the perimeter. Carter is not easier to guard than Hedo, Turk often gets smaller players on him and is both unwilling and unable to post them up, and needs the pick to get a step on his defender. Carter averages nearly as many assists as Hedo does, can run the pick and roll, and is certainly better in isolations. If you want to argue the fact that Carter dominates the ball, what do you think Hedo does?

 

Sure, this trade alone doesn't make us better, we have 8 guys on the roster. What this trade does is make us more flexible. We certainly need to wait until free agency plays out and the roster is complete before we judge if our team is better or not. I'd put money on significant improvement.

[New Guy 11]

quote:

Originally posted by magicfan83:

There is no hypocrisy in the position that paying Vince is better than paying Hedo. It has less to do with the amount of money and significantly more to do with the length of the contract. I think 99% of the forum would be willing to pay Hedo 10 million for the next two years, but no one wants give him that for the next 5 years. The contract Otis offered for 36 million over 4 years is very fair, and I think most forum members would have accepted that and welcomed him back. Then both Hedo's and Lewis' contract would come off the books at the same time allowing us major cap room to pair someone with Dwight. Hedo declined the offer, then Otis made the move. If Vince fades, he doesn't hamstring us past next year. If Hedo declines, his contract hurts us for 5 years, and may affect our ability to extend Dwight.

 

To the new guy...

 

We'll have plenty of open 3s. Penetration and double teams off of Dwight will still be there as will the open looks on the perimeter. Carter is not easier to guard than Hedo, Turk often gets smaller players on him and is both unwilling and unable to post them up, and needs the pick to get a step on his defender. Carter averages nearly as many assists as Hedo does, can run the pick and roll, and is certainly better in isolations. If you want to argue the fact that Carter dominates the ball, what do you think Hedo does?

 

Sure, this trade alone doesn't make us better, we have 8 guys on the roster. What this trade does is make us more flexible. We certainly need to wait until free agency plays out and the roster is complete before we judge if our team is better or not. I'd put money on significant improvement.

 

I agree that Vince is a better player but, no they wont be used exactly the same way...and dont get too caught up in Carter's assist numbers. While consistant, he's not a great passer, worse than Hedo in this regard. And he cannot run an offense like Hedo. He dominates the ball in the fact that he wants to shoot it 20+ times. To say Hedo did that is a fallacy. Also, dont bash Hedo too much for his lack of driving because, at Carter's older age...he has resorted to chucking up lots of threes and jumpers as well. So, you'll have to get used to that. To say this makes us more flexible is a fallacy. Carter is a 2 guard, through and through. Hedo could play the 1-4 pretty effectively, the 4 to a much lesser extent. And you also lose Courtney's ability to cover positions 1-3. And that isnt an easy thing to replace. Defense...Carter is better when he wants to be, when he isnt taking plays off or giving too much cushion.

 

Now dont get me wrong...I like Carter but, this seems like a one sided argument in all these Carter threads and people are failing to recognize what we just lost in a player or two. Going conventional could change a great deal more than you guys think. We'll be playing a different brand of basketball next year. To what extent, I couldnt tell you but, expect more half court with a true PF. Expect more slower pacing at times and less pushing of the ball. More formulaic offenses instead of free flowing. Playing into the conventions of the league. Maybe even a little triangle offense. Now who knows, right? This could end up being a good thing but, it could also end up hurting us as well.

[magicfan83 23]

quote:

Originally posted by New Guy:

quote:

Originally posted by magicfan83:

There is no hypocrisy in the position that paying Vince is better than paying Hedo. It has less to do with the amount of money and significantly more to do with the length of the contract. I think 99% of the forum would be willing to pay Hedo 10 million for the next two years, but no one wants give him that for the next 5 years. The contract Otis offered for 36 million over 4 years is very fair, and I think most forum members would have accepted that and welcomed him back. Then both Hedo's and Lewis' contract would come off the books at the same time allowing us major cap room to pair someone with Dwight. Hedo declined the offer, then Otis made the move. If Vince fades, he doesn't hamstring us past next year. If Hedo declines, his contract hurts us for 5 years, and may affect our ability to extend Dwight.

 

To the new guy...

 

We'll have plenty of open 3s. Penetration and double teams off of Dwight will still be there as will the open looks on the perimeter. Carter is not easier to guard than Hedo, Turk often gets smaller players on him and is both unwilling and unable to post them up, and needs the pick to get a step on his defender. Carter averages nearly as many assists as Hedo does, can run the pick and roll, and is certainly better in isolations. If you want to argue the fact that Carter dominates the ball, what do you think Hedo does?

 

Sure, this trade alone doesn't make us better, we have 8 guys on the roster. What this trade does is make us more flexible. We certainly need to wait until free agency plays out and the roster is complete before we judge if our team is better or not. I'd put money on significant improvement.

 

I agree that Vince is a better player but, no they wont be used exactly the same way...and dont get too caught up in Carter's assist numbers. While consistant, he's not a great passer, worse than Hedo in this regard. And he cannot run an offense like Hedo. He dominates the ball in the fact that he wants to shoot it 20+ times. To say Hedo did that is a fallacy. Also, dont bash Hedo too much for his lack of driving because, at Carter's older age...he has resorted to chucking up lots of threes and jumpers as well. So, you'll have to get used to that. To say this makes us more flexible is a fallacy. Carter is a 2 guard, through and through. Hedo could play the 1-4 pretty effectively, the 4 to a much lesser extent. And you also lose Courtney's ability to cover positions 1-3. And that isnt an easy thing to replace. Defense...Carter is better when he wants to be, when he isnt taking plays off or giving too much cushion.

 

Now dont get me wrong...I like Carter but, this seems like a one sided argument in all these Carter threads and people are failing to recognize what we just lost in a player or two. Going conventional could change a great deal more than you guys think. We'll be playing a different brand of basketball next year. To what extent, I couldnt tell you but, expect more half court with a true PF. Expect more slower pacing at times and less pushing of the ball. More formulaic offenses instead of free flowing. Playing into the conventions of the league. Maybe even a little triangle offense. Now who knows, right? This could end up being a good thing but, it could also end up hurting us as well.

 

There is an awful lot wrong with your first paragraph. Carter averaged 16.8 shot attempts per game last year. And that was on a lottery team where he was clearly the best offensive player. Hedo took 13.3 shots per game, and that was on a team with 3 All Stars. Hedo averaged 4.9 assists against 2.68 turnovers per game. Carter averaged 4.7 assists against 2.08 turnovers per game. If you want to say Carter dominates the ball more, then you can't ignore how much less he turns the ball over. Again, look at their respective teammates, do you really think Carter's assist rate won't go up when you provide him with the most dominant center in the league, the guy who made the most 3's in the league, and an all star PG who may be the best shooting guard in the entire league? The second best player on NJ was a PG who averaged 6.9 assists himself.

 

Turkoglu can play the 3. That's it. He can't defend any position. He can play point forward. His effectiveness in that role without a PG on the floor is limited. The extent to which he runs the offense is basically he runs the pick and roll. He doesn't call plays, he doesn't direct guys to spots. In fact, he really doesn't do a good job of getting Dwight the ball when he rolls. His shot selection is iffy at best. There is atleast 1 dumbfounding turnover per game and atleast 4 dumbfounding defensive mistakes per game.

 

Carter can play the 2 and 3 and does so quite often. He can run the pick and roll just as effectively as Turk, if not better. He shoots at a better percentage and turns over the ball less often.

 

Yes our style of play may change somewhat. We will slow down the tempo simply with the loss of Alston. With the addition of Wallace or Bass, we will no longer get killed on the offensive glass. Our defensive efficiency will improve, and we will give our opponents less possessions. We now have a guy who can get his own shot, which is huge considering we lost 2 overtime games, and 4 playoff games on buzzer beaters when we had several bad possessions late in the game. But we'll still have the versatility to go small with Carter and Pietrus on the wing and Lewis at the 4. If we get Sheed and retain Gortat, this team just got significantly better and more versatile.

[mood 0]

And despite this poorly gifted, crap player, who plays nearly 40mpg for every game of the playoffs we manage to reach the finals...god, all of our other players must be superstars..

 

try to stop bashing hedo while you are flattering carter..

he is better than hedo and we all will see how he will fit in our team and how this addition will effect the team chemistry..

[New Guy 11]

Hedo Turkoglu played point forward a lot. Vince Carter plays shooting guard for nearly the majority of the game. His turnovers arent as high because, he isn't looking to set up teammates, he's looking to shoot. A lot of Carter's game, is catch and shoot...so you would expect lower turnover numbers. He's not a ball handler like Hedo is. He wont control it as much. He'll get passed to and chuck it up or drive. (not so much, lately) Yeah, he'll get the ball to the open man several times per game but, dont let that confuse you. He's no ballhandler/passer. And yes, VC wants to take about 20+ shots per night whenever he can. He's a shooter/scorer, that's his game, he's always been a ball hog when it comes to shots. Not excatly a bad thing if you can convert, though. He did have 23 games last year of 20+ shots (this is even down in comparison to years past) in comparison to Turkoglu's 4. That's what Carter does, dominates the ball.

 

To say all Hedo can do is play the 3 is a bogus statment. You just said he could play the point forward position which is equilvilant to the 1. And he can fit right in at the 2 and 4 as well. This is a player that gives us more flexibility, that is fact. And while, I'll agree he played a lackadaisical defense often...lets not pretend that VC is some shut down defender. He only plays when he wants to and has never been known as a defensive stopper. He'll play hard some times and others, he'll take drives off.

 

Hedo and Vince are too very different players...it's not like they cancel eachother out. Hedo couldnt do some of things Vince could do and vice versa.

 

I agree that we better **** well be better on the offensive glass, but so what? So is every team with a coventional front court. This doesnt necessarily equate to wins. It will sure be nice but, it doesnt mean we'll be any better in the long run next year.

 

Also...as for Gortat. He would have to be pretty stupid to return. I mean I love the guy but, there are teams out there that are willing to start him and give him major minutes right now. We on the other hand couldnt increase his minutes all that much and his play w/ Dwight at the same time, is atrocious. They're both centers with no jump shots. They cant compliment eachother on the offensive end. Gortat has an inflated self worth anyway, he thinks he's a star and is ready to show the world. I wish him the best.

 

And from a salary cap stand point. Retaining him looks pretty improbable. The full MLE will be needed to sign Wallace or Bass. You're all kidding yourselves if you think Wallace, who made $13 million last year, would play for the vet mimimum. Especially considering just a few months ago he was looking for $8 million per.

[Vellassco 0]

Just before to leave this boards forever, a New Guy came and sum all aspects with a fair and great basketball knowladge.

 

welcome to boards bud, and bye

[magicfan83 23]

New Guy, have you watched Carter at all since Kidd left New Jersey? Carter's game is not catch and shoot, yeah he's capable of doing so with the best of them. But really, its not even 10% of his game. He penetrates, he dishes, he gets to the line. If Carter is a ball hog (he's not anymore), and dominates the ball, doesn't that in fact mean he can handle the ball? If he doesn't turn the ball over by getting stripped or making bad passes, when he sees the ball so much more often, wouldn't that make him an effective passer/decision maker? Carter averages 3.5 more shot attempts per game than Turkoglu on an absolutely terrible team. His shot attempts will go down playing with Nelson, Lewis, and Howard, instead of Harris, and well that's pretty much it.

 

The point forward is not equivalent to the 1. Scottie Pippen and Grant Hill were the best point forwards in recent memory, no one would consider them playing the 1. Point Forward is still playing the 3, but with added ball handling responsibility. Turk cannot play the 2. He is not quick enough to either drive past nor defend the 2. He can't post up anyone. He can't play the 4. At least he can drive past opposing PFs, but he can neither defend them nor box them out. He is a 3, that's it. I'm not bashing him, he is what he is. Carter has played several YEARS at 3, though yes he has been at the 2 predominantly. You'll probably see him at 3 in spots next year. You won't see Turk playing the 2 or 4 anywhere next year.

 

Trying to predict what is going on in player's minds is a guessing game at best. I'm not going to get into that. We'll see what happens. Management has said they are willing to offer Gortat a contract similar to Battie's. Wallace has made a ton of money, saying he won't take the vet min could be a negotiating tactic. This is an exercise in futility as we will all find out sometime on July 1st.

[AcuWill 45]

Another point: Turk's play very often lacked energy and he would cost us points and games (even in teh PLAYOFFS) with the lack of defensive intensity and willingness to simply close out or get a rebound.

 

With VC taht won't be an issue.

[New Guy 11]

quote:

Originally posted by magicfan83:

New Guy, have you watched Carter at all since Kidd left New Jersey? Carter's game is not catch and shoot, yeah he's capable of doing so with the best of them. But really, its not even 10% of his game. He penetrates, he dishes, he gets to the line. If Carter is a ball hog (he's not anymore), and dominates the ball, doesn't that in fact mean he can handle the ball? If he doesn't turn the ball over by getting stripped or making bad passes, when he sees the ball so much more often, wouldn't that make him an effective passer/decision maker? Carter averages 3.5 more shot attempts per game than Turkoglu on an absolutely terrible team. His shot attempts will go down playing with Nelson, Lewis, and Howard, instead of Harris, and well that's pretty much it.

 

The point forward is not equivalent to the 1. Scottie Pippen and Grant Hill were the best point forwards in recent memory, no one would consider them playing the 1. Point Forward is still playing the 3, but with added ball handling responsibility. Turk cannot play the 2. He is not quick enough to either drive past nor defend the 2. He can't post up anyone. He can't play the 4. At least he can drive past opposing PFs, but he can neither defend them nor box them out. He is a 3, that's it. I'm not bashing him, he is what he is. Carter has played several YEARS at 3, though yes he has been at the 2 predominantly. You'll probably see him at 3 in spots next year. You won't see Turk playing the 2 or 4 anywhere next year.

 

Trying to predict what is going on in player's minds is a guessing game at best. I'm not going to get into that. We'll see what happens. Management has said they are willing to offer Gortat a contract similar to Battie's. Wallace has made a ton of money, saying he won't take the vet min could be a negotiating tactic. This is an exercise in futility as we will all find out sometime on July 1st.

 

I do live in this crap hole NJ, so I've seen every one of his games. That being said, I do have NBA league pass so I watch every team as much as possible. Really is a thing of beauty.

 

I said becoming more catch and shoot...not is entirely. Carter does not drive nearly as much as you'd like, anymore. Everyone complains about Hedo not pentrating, well prepare yourself....Carter has the same problem. Carter's numbers as in terms of shots, remains constant despite who he plays with. And why are his tunrover margins lower? Because he doesnt handle the ball as much as Turk does, as in dribbling. And he has a shoot first mentality. Hedo turned the ball over plenty of time on arrant passes. Head scratchers, I'd agree at times. The same could be said for some of Rafer's. bleh.

 

As for this 1 argument...come on now. A point forward is essentially a big man playing point guard on offense. Matter of fact that is exactly what it is. And Hedo has seen time at all 4 of these positions while a part of the Magic. If that's not flexibility, I dont know what is. He and Lewis were interchangable. Luckily we still have a guy like Pietrus who can do some of these things but, it's not the same. And lets not even get into Pietrus below average ball handling. lol. He doesnt even keep his head up when he dribbles. Great slasher but, terrible handle and basketball IQ. I love him too, though. He was insane in the playoffs. But back to the point...Hedo can realistically play any of 4 positions to Carters 2. And he doesnt even belong at SF because, he's not always a willing defender so, guarding bigger guys isnt always his cup of tea. Not to mention, he wouldnt be a great rebounder at the 3.

 

As for Gortat/Wallace. Wallace will in no way play for the veteran minimum. Other teams are all ready talking MLE...so, that will probably be his worth. As a Magic fan, I would love Gortat back and give him a little extra time wherever we could. But as a basektball fan, I would also feel like we're holding back a player from being all he can be on another team. I'd still want to keep him, though. But yeah, I thinking the chances are minimal at best. Very small chance, he'll be back. I loved his comments about wanting to play 48 minutes per game. Joking of course but, the guy wants to start. I dont know why he wouldnt jump ship. He thinks he's a star already and he wants to showcase his talents.

 

I'm going to call it a night or well, a morning since it's 7 am. haha. Been up all night. The Dark Knight drew me in again and I couldnt look away. Although we are at opposite ends of the spectrum, good talk and good night. Err...good morning.

[magicfan83 23]

We're not as far apart on this issue as you would think. I would have welcomed Turk back at the offer we gave him of 36 million/4 years. However, that contract was my limit as far as length. He declined and it was time to move on. Grabbing Vince was an excellent Plan B.

 

How can Vince dominate the ball, but not handle the ball as much? Those statements really contradict themselves. As far as Pietrus, no one thinks we are going to put him into a ball handling role. He'll be an energy guy off the bench and defend the other teams best wing player.

 

Gortat is a restricted free agent. If any team makes him an offer, if we match the offer he can't jump ship. Even if it's more than we are willing to pay, we can still match and trade him for a couple of bench fillers. Gortat signed for 4-5 million per year is a very tradeable asset. Wallace is said to be between the Spurs, the Magic, and retirement. I like our chances if we match the Spurs' offer.