Justin Jaudon

I know everyone is excited about the money we have coming up in the offseason, but I want to talk about the trades we just made for a second. Dumping Frye and still getting a better replacement with Ersan is huge. One of the main problems I have had watching this team is that Frye is either making shots or he isn't contributing at all. Ersan can rebound, and he is a better defender at the 4 than Frye. Unless Frye was on fire, he could never play down the stretch with Vuc, because other teams abused him on D. Ersan can play with Vuc if Gordon is having a bad night or has a bad matchup. I've said all season, this team needs vets who can close out games, because the young guys have trouble tightening it up in the 4th. Ersan is part of that, as much as I doubt it will be a nightly thing that he is needed late in games. Think about this: sometimes we need Oladipo in the game for his defense, but his shot isn't falling. That creates spacing issues on the offensive side. With Ersan, as long as Gordan isn't going off - and if so, this is irrelevant, anyway - we can keep the spacing without sacrificing so much of the defense. Same with Payton, and even Gordon at the 3. Jennings is a giant ? of how much are we going to get? I think at very least we get a huge upgrade at backup PG. And, at the end of games, he could be invaluable. He's struggled to shoot this year - his whole career, really. But the important part is that, even after coming back from this injury, his assists and turnovers have been very good. He is a closer, and he thrives in those moments. At this point, he's not any worse a defender than Elf, and he's even this year a much better offensive player, if you put any stock in ORTG. It wouldn't shock me to see him start by the end of the season, if Payton starts struggling again, considering this is a guy who last year was putting up all-star numbers before he got hurt. I'm not expecting that, by any means. But injuries heal, and some guys come back strong. It's too early to say what Jennings we will get, but the very worst is a very good backup PG who can help close out games if things start to go south as they so often do when we have leads in the fourth - one of the biggest needs for this team. This team still has a shot at the playoffs, and I'm excited about what these new guys bring to this season.

Why does everybody hate Napier so much. I thought he was a solid third PG.

As CJ the White?

This. I was pissed about the Fournier trade, but I learned from that. I should have learned long before that, but some people are just childish by nature, I guess.

I'm not sure what that is. I get the feeling it's a kids show I'm either too old or too young to remember.

It's like watching a really angry puppy :popcorn:

At the time, getting Brandon Jennings would have been universally loved. And no, we got Tobias Harris for three years, then Brandon Jennings and Ersan Ilyasova. Ersan might not just be a rental. This team needs a player like him long-term, so why not keep him?

We signed him because he was always going to be trade-able, and this proves that. We would have got nothing for him letting him walk. Instead, we got a stretch 4 that can actually play, and a chance of a good PG.

Cool. Just so long as we're operating with the understanding that neither of us has any real understanding of what Rob Hennigan, Scott Skiles, or Alex Martins is thinking. If you want to speculate on why you think this is a bad deal, do so. If you want to postulate why clearly Hennigan was overruled by Martins and Skiles, do so. But add something to the conversation, please.

As an executive with the Magic? Any affiliation with the team? I mean, I have 20 years of fandom and speculation based on limited knowledge of what is really going on behind the scenes too. Does that mean I can say whatever I want? Okay. This trade was actually all about Martins and Devos apologizing to Stan for the way he was fired. Clearly they wanted to give Stan the better side of the trade, and they know him, so it all adds up, right?

I get that, but doesn't trading for two of his former players at our two most needed positions make perfect sense? This team desperately needed a PG with experience - check. We've been trying to get a decent stretch 4 - check. Everyone here agrees we needed to offload Harris' contract to stay fluid in the future - check. Jennings and Illyasova will need virtually no time to pick up the defensive scheme, as they were playing in it just a few years ago. Skiles gets what he wanted, help to make a playoff push. Hennigan gets his stretch 4 and more financial flexibility. The fans get to see more Vic/Fournier/Hezonja/Gordon playing time. Everybody wins. I get why Skiles would love this. What I don't get is why Hennigan wouldn't. And what does Martins have invested in this? It was and is a strange comment by Magicman28.

I always liked the person, grew to like the player. He was a solid player who helped develop this team. I wish him well.

Source?

Wow, the freak outs. Wow, the pouting... I love this board. :popcorn:

Probably, we let them play together some, develop Payton as a backup more like Atlanta has done with Shroder.

This, definitely. And Fournier, maybe. I still think he could be our long-term starting SF option.

I think if Watson is healthy, he's still the main backup (though I don't know that he'll ever be healthy). Jennings is a hope move, I think. If he can get back to the old Jennings, terrific. If not, we dumped Harris for Irsan, who's a worse player but fits better.

Harris becomes Stan's new Hedo?

I like the thought process, but I'd want a pick as well. Harris still has solid value, and I'm not that high on Illyasova - worse defender than Harris on the perimeter, so he's less versatile. Good thing about it is, he's a true stretch 4, something I don't really think we have (Frye can't defend 4's at all anymore, and he's nearly as bad as Vuc on the switch, though I like him as a stretch 5).

I'm not sure "Stevens is a much better coach than Skiles". Brad Stevens is in his third year as head coach. He won 25 games the first year, 40 the next. This will be the first winning season for them. Boston is where Orlando would be if we'd had Skiles three seasons ago to develop these guys to begin with. Instead, we had a coach who was totally fine with losing (if people want a reason to hate on Hennigan, that's the only one, hiring Vaughn - though that losing got us Gordon and Mario, so in the long run we may still be better off for it). Stevens inherited a team with a couple of guys who he could use with playoff experience (Rondo and Bradley) plus some solid young guys. They got rid of Rondo, but brought in Thomas, a hilariously underrated player everywhere he's been until now. Stevens developed the young guys, used the vets to control the tempo on the court. But it took more than that first season. Skiles doesn't have vets who can contribute when it counts, unless you count Vuc and Harris as vets (they've been in the league a while, but both have been taught to lose, not win). He has to rely on a 21-year-old at PG late in games, which predictably produces mixed results. We all know this would be a .500 team already if you just cut the 4th quarter meltdowns in half. My point is, I think the major difference between Orlando and Boston (in terms of wins/losses) is Thomas and Bradley, not Brad Stevens. Stevens might be a little better, but it's too early in Skiles' tenure to say for sure.

I liked Detroit. And I agree that that may be what it takes to get past GS. Which is why I like San Antonio. I don't know that we can be Detroit, though. I love Jimmy Bulter, guys. He's my type of player, and he'd fit in perfectly on this team. I think if you could get him without giving up 2 high-valued assets and two solid assets, you do it. And maybe Hennigan can get that done. All I'm saying is I don't like the trade mentioned where we give up half the team.

I hear you. He has some serious negatives to him. But his biggest problem is he thinks he's still the man on that team. There is a difference between playing like one of the worst and being one of the worst. His ORTG is terrible because his usage is through the roof. Get him under control, and I am convinced he's an average starting PG. To illustrate, Kobe's ORTG and DRTG are actually worse than Rose's. Do you really think Kobe is one of the worst players in the league, or is he just not convinced any of the other players can lead on the court, and there's no one else with enough standing to sit him down? If Butler sits Rose's ass down and tells him to get in line, like a superstar should, then Rose is an average starting NBA PG.

I'm not docking Jimmy Butler. He's a great player. But a superstar he is not, and Rose's usage rate actually points to that. Maybe when the Bulls are ready to move on from the Ghost of Derrick Rose, he will be. But right now, he still doesn't have the standing with his own team to take over from a guy who hasn't been great in 5 years. So Butler still has a maybe to him. George doesn't anymore. Before this year, I would have said George had to earn that superstar status in my book. But he's been carrying the Pacers, an otherwise misshapen team in transition, like a superstar should, and I'm giving him the credit. Vogel does keep that team from being a bottom lottery team, even without George. There are a lot of reasons the Bulls are struggling. But rookie coach or not, if you've got a superstar and an all-star, and the rest of your roster is average, you should be better than the Bulls are currently. But they fit the narrative of a team with two all-stars and a rookie coach working with an average rest of the roster.

I have compared the rosters. I mentioned the respective rosters in my post. But for the fun of it, let's all take a look: Derrick Rose>George Hill. Not by as much as he used to be, but he's still the better player. Tony Snell<Monta Ellis. Barely at this point, but for the same reason Rose is better than Hill, Ellis is better than Snell. Taj Gibson>Jordan Hill. This is almost a wash, but Gibson is a better team defender and much better shot blocker. Pau Gasol>>>>Ian Mahinmi. Pau is probably the most underrated player of our time. He is still an all-star caliber big, who makes others better. Let's take a look at the lesser played guys: Hinrich=Stuckey. Could not be more of a wash at this point. Mirotic>>Allen. This isn't even close, regardless of Mirotic playing hurt. He's playing, and considerably better than Lavoy Allen. Brooks>>Young. Aaron Brooks is considerably better than Joseph Young, without argument. McDermott<Hill/Budinger. This is pretty close, but I'll give it to Solomon Hill/Chase Budinger for argument's sake. Portis<Turner. It's close, really. Turner is a better scorer and much better shot blocker, but Portis is a better rebounder and passer, and he streches the floor better. To me, it boils down to this: Butler plays with another all-star caliber player, plus he has a slightly better supporting group, even considering the injuries the Bulls have suffered. George has no other player capable of taking over a game, mostly just a bunch of solid role players. He has to be on every night, or they lose. His team has no real power forward worth talking about. The bench lacks enough floor-stretchers. They have a lot of problems. Basically, they are below average at every position except starting Small Forward, and maybe starting Point Guard. The Bulls have an average starting PG, below average starting SF, an average starting PF, an all-star caliber C, and an average bench. If Butler is a superstar, that team is competitive in the East, not barely holding on to a .500 record. I like Butler. I think he's a great player. I'd give up any player on our roster, with a pick and some filler, to get Jimmy Butler. I wouldn't give up two core players and a pick and filler for him. I would for Paul George. I'd have to think about it, but Paul George has proved it by now, he's a superstar.

I'm sorry, has Orlando been linked to any superstar trades? Because I've heard some rumors of us trading for good players, all-stars even... but Jimmy Butler is not a superstar, people. Maybe he will be. But right now he's on a pretty talented team that's struggling to keep over .500. That doesn't spell superstar, it spells all-star. He's not Scotty Pippen, he's Michael Finley. Paul George is winning more with dinner scraps and used band-aids (and he's barely a superstar). You trade 4 assets for a superstar, hell even five. You don't do that for an all-star. Isaiah Thomas is an all-star, guys. David Lee was at least once. Jimmy Butler is a very good player, but you don't trade two high-valued assets (Dipo and Vuc) along with two solid assets (Frye and a First Round Pick) for him. That's insane. It's not how you build a team successfully. I'm not against trading anyone on this team if it gets us an all-star who can help us make a push, because I think the time is now to make that push. But I am against trading two core assets and a possible lottery pick, plus a good trade chip, for a guy who might help us become a marginally better team next year.