Justin Jaudon

Last year ALL SL had Payton. Back-up PG was Ridnour. Skiles' system doesn't utilize his skill set, it asks him to gain skills rather than relying on talent, because talent alone doesn't win. Payton's skill set is horrendously limited as an NBA player. He's very raw. He also doesn't seem to get that.

That is certainly one way of looking at it. Jaque Vaughn is a smart guy, and he seemed to view it that way, too. But tell me something: how come the guys who go all out every night are getting absurdly consistent minutes now? Dipo, Evan, Smith, those guys make mistakes. Dipo and Evan are young, and they make mistakes. He pulls them, they listen, he puts them back in, they go back to work. Sometimes they've figured it out, sometimes not. But they always go back to work when they get back on the floor. The guys whose minutes are up and down are either rookies like Mario or guys like Vuc and Elf who have effort issues. Elf gets pulled and he pouts; even when he gets back out there, he just pouts. That's a theme this season. He doesn't want to be held accountable, doesn't want to be coached. He wants to do things his way, and he wants the coach "behind him" as in where he doesn't have to listen. He plays on an island; even when he gets an assist, it's usually not from running the offense, but from doing his own thing. Now maybe it's because a lot is being put on him as a second-year player. Maybe he'll figure it out. But he never will understand how to play the game right if Skiles just lets him go out there and do his thing. Skiles showed remarkable patience with Dipo. He benched him, but he let him know, this is a team thing, and it isn't necessarily permanent. Dipo responded like a professional, worked his ass off, and fixed what was a disastrous start to the season. Even Vuc usually responds well to extended time on the bench - it just sucks that Skiles has to continue to do that to get him motivated on D. Skiles' rotations are all over the place. And he does seem desperate to find players who want to play every night. Would you prefer he just let guys roll out there half-assed and get annihilated while he just sits on the sidelines like Vaughn used to do? Should he just smile after blowouts and say, "Well, it's a process, these guys are learning to be NBA players"? Teaching isn't letting the students do whatever they want. It's showing how to do what you're asking them to do - which happens in practice, which we don't get to see - and then making them accountable in games for doing that. As a teacher, if a student shows no interest in doing math, you keep at him, keep teaching him, keep telling him how important it is. You don't put him on the Mathletes team and let him fail. You don't just keep giving him tests you know he's going to fail. Because then two things happen: 1) he never learns the lesson that he needed to learn all along, that it is important not to fail; and 2) he starts believing either he cannot succeed at math or that the teacher is not teaching him correctly - because at that point, he's right. Letting guys make mistakes without holding them accountable for three years is why this team has an effort problem.

The difference is mostly, I think, that Gordon is clearly improving over time, while Payton has been pretty much the same enigma the whole year. He has regressed overall since last year, even, and I hope that's just a sophomore learning curve. But his attitude about things is scary. He didn't seem very coach-able, even last year when he wasn't receiving much coaching.

Yea, it's kinda ridiculous to say he had no problems defensively when he got torched by his assignment every time he stepped on the floor. Guys have bad nights. Hell, Dipo and Gordon had rough nights containing their assignments, obviously. The difference is those guys see it, are clearly trying to learn from it. Elf thinks he's doing just fine, but the coach is mean...

You want the coach to have no input on what the PG is doing? Really?

Ah, the myth of a 100% fully engaged Elfrid Payton...

I like Vuc too. I think he's got insane talent on the offensive end. But he needs to be on a team like OKC where he can be hidden by Serge on D. I honestly think back before teams started spamming PNR's at you all day, he would have been a top center in the league kind of guy. He has that kind of talent on offense, and he rebounds, and his hand-eye coordination is solid enough that he isn't that bad a shot-blocker when he's actually there for the block. But as I said before, to be successful with him as our starting center, AG needs to become all-world on D, and the PG position has to be elite as well. Right now AG is still learning how to cover for him, and Payton is "slow and lethargic" on D more often than not. I get how it's easy to blame the coach. Skiles IS stubborn. And he doesn't coddle the players. So it's easy to say, "he's a bully who's out of touch and doesn't change with the times." But Vaughn coddled the hell out of the players, was young and analytical and just let guys play through the mistakes. And it got us three sub-30 win seasons. Skiles hasn't had the immediate impact we were hoping he would, but he has righted Dipo's defense from the crap it was last year, he has maximized Fournier, he has instilled a good mentality into Aaron, and Vuc has improved - just not enough. The only real unexpected issue is Payton has been a train wreck. Jennings talks about how he hated playing for Skiles back in the day, but that it helped him become a better player in the end. Payton might have the same type of turnaround, but as of right now they are clashing big time.

You ever think maybe it was the players that killed Vaughn, not the other way around? Two coaches in a row now who can't get these players to bring it every night. Maybe it's more than the coaches.

I am officially in for getting rid of everyone on this team who isn't Aaron, Evan, Dipo, and Mario (and with Mario it's just potential, he hasn't really earned that loyalty). Evan and Dipo come to play every night, and they contribute consistently. Aaron is getting there, and his potential is sky high. Vuc is sadly just not going to cut it on D. And Payton needs to be benched immediately. I understand he gets sat down during all these games where he's playing flat and not doing ****. But he keeps his starting job. That needs to change. He comes out like he's coasting way too often against lesser teams, and it gets us killed. If it's me, I start Jennings the rest of the season, see what we really have there. The problem is, I don't know that the higher-ups will let Skiles bench Elfrid. I haven't liked his attitude since he came here, and this year has just been really frustrating watching him play on his own little island. One thing Skiles has done a great job of: he's shown us who the real professionals are on this team. That's what we wanted from him, accountability. Evan gets huge minutes because he plays hard every night. Dipo got benched early in the season, took it like a man, and earned his way back into the SL by playing his ass off every night. Gordon got into the SL by earning it coming in off the bench and playing hard. Elf gets sat down for two-thirds of games because he just doesn't play hard. Vuc gets sat for long stretches because he gives no effort on D. Dedmon stopped getting major minutes because his focus went to **** and he started taking stupid shots and camping out for blocks on D. People can hate on Skiles all they want, but he didn't put this team together, he's just tasked with teaching them how to win. We saw in December that Skiles' system is not outdated. It just relies on guys playing hard. You can call him a bad motivator, but he hasn't been here long enough for that to be clear at all. He's motivated Dipo and Evan, and Aaron as well. Even Vuc plays harder than he did for Vaughn. Rant over... probably

Shooting, passing, leadership, versatility, not being a basket-case

Payton hasn't been benched. He's been treated like the savior by this organization, really. Even when he was contributing virtually nothing earlier in the year, he was the guy. Why? If I had to guess, it's because he basically cost two first rounders. If he's not the starter of the future, then we spent two first round picks on a backup. So he's being given every opportunity to excel. I hope he works it out, I really do.

Really? That's what you take away from that article and that quote? Well... I suppose if you have hate in your heart, let it out.

Vuc's problem is the same as Dedmon's: they are both entirely one-dimensional. We get worse with Dedmon on the floor because his offense is actually worse than Vuc's defense, while his defense is not as good as Vuc's offense. But the problem highlights the issues of the entire team: one-dimensional players. We have basically one or two two-way guys in our starting lineup, depending on Fournier's match-up (three at best if Payton is feeling the defensive and offensive end at the same time, though that's been extremely rare this year). We have maybe one two-way guy on the bench in Ersan, though that also depends on match-ups. Dipo is the only fairly consistent two-way player, and his offense is still inconsistent - though he almost always at least contributes positively on that end. This team has been built on a principle, and one that is requiring a lot of patience to watch. Gordon is coming along, and I have high hopes he'll be a two-way guy. Mario I haven't seen enough to be confident in his defense going forward, but nothing I've seen is really discouraging fro a 20-year-old European; there's hope there. Payton is an enigma wrapped in a question wrapped in a shrug. Vuc is pretty solidly a one-dimensional guy, and that's what he's going to be - he might continue to improve on D, but he's never going to be a positive on that end for this team. Dedmon is one-dimensional. C. J. is at maybe one-dimensional, if he can get healthy - right now he's just a flat-out negative. Jennings is like Payton, but flipped; sometimes his offense outweighs his defense, sometimes his defense is fine anyway - rarely both come together, but we haven't really seen enough of him to judge properly. With 4 good defenders around him, we could be a solid defense even with Vuc, but we'd need to be a great offense at that point to be elite. With 4 good scorers around him, we could be a solid offensive team with Dedmon, but we'd need to be a great defense to be elite. Neither of those things is happening right now, and honestly I think we have a better chance of becoming a great offense with the current roster than a great defense. So Vuc right now is a better answer than Dedmon, but both leave us in frustration. Basically, I hope Payton follows Vic's example and next year rebounds from a rough defensive output and becomes borderline elite like his size/quickness/talent would allow if his head were on straight. Then maybe there's hope for the team as structured, with Vuc not having to be moved. Basically, this team is still waiting on Payton and Gordon to develop, which in retrospect is fair, considering they are second-year guys.

Mike Brown and Avery Johnson also won the COTY award. Both of them, in 09 and 06 respectively. Derp.

This is a joke, right? Skiles is not perfect, but it's his first year with this team. You want to fire a guy with a record of turning around bad teams for a guy with a record of... never making the playoffs and getting progressively worse every year?

I think the Payton/Vucevic thing has been the story of the year, and it has nothing to do with offense. Payton is indeed sporadic on offense, and that is frustrating. But that is not why I think he is perhaps the worst full-time starting PG in the league. His defense is usually terrible. Occasionally, he shows up on that end with focus and all the things we love about his size/speed/athleticism combo seem to look better. But far too often he is completely confused as to when to get close up and pressure a ball-handler and when to play off of him. He leaves his man way too often, trying to make plays. He doesn't close out as well as he thinks he does, and so he gets lit up by PGs who can shoot and move. Now, these are things that can be taught, but they are habits that he has that are clearly deeply ingrained. We've heard Skiles call him out for this, so I'm not thinking it is Skiles' fault. Either he's not focused, or he's not smart. Vuc is a conundrum. His defense is not always so terrible, but far too often it is. With him, it isn't about focus, but effort. Sometimes he's downright solid on that end, but it seems you need to piss him off first, and it never lasts more than a couple of games. The reason so many people would like to keep him is that he has developed into one of the most skilled offensive centers I've ever seen. He scores from everywhere, at a high rate. He passes extremely well. I think you can have a C like Vuc and be successful, but you need to have tremendous defensive talent around him. He doesn't look nearly as bad defending the pick and roll with Vic as he does with Payton - though, again, that varies with his effort level too. I don't question whether a team can be successful with Vuc, only if this team can be. Payton is an enigma to me. At times, it looks like this team could be very successful with him - when his defense is working. When Payton is playing well on D, and Vuc is motivated, this team looks good. But then sometimes Payton is just awful, and Vuc is not the guy to cover for a PG who can't guard the point of attack. Myself, I think if one of them have to go, it's probably Vuc. I hate that, because I think Vuc is a far better overall player, and he is at least consistent on one side of the floor. But he has trade value because of that. Elf is virtually un-tradeable. We have to develop him or drop him altogether, because I doubt anyone else would want a PG with a flawed shot AND inconsistent focus and effort. We may have to replace both, truth be told. Vuc may never find the consistent effort on D we would need for him to be a viable option next to Gordon in the front court. Payton may just be not very bright, and so he may never be able to defend consistently, even if he does continue to improve his shot. My hope is that Payton will figure it out, because I think Dipo's shot is good enough that, as long as Payton's and Gordon's continue to improve, they actually can play together without killing the spacing on offense. But that requires a low-post scoring presence as well, which Vuc certainly can be. My hope is also that Vuc's effort will get better as he has more coaching from a real coach like Skiles. We've seen his defense has gotten better under Skiles already, when the effort is there. But clearly these two aren't ready this year. One or the other seems to always be terrible on D, and it kills us.

This is about as close to a must win as you get this time of year, with the loss against the Pacers. We need a great game from the bench. Hopefully Mario or BJ goes off.

I don't think Vucevic or Oladipo have regressed, and certainly Gordon has improved. Vuc's only real dropping stat is his rebounding, but that has more to do with others rebounding better and him improving on defense (not just playing for the rebound, but contesting shots). Dipo had a rough start to the season, on offense, but overall he has been a much better defender all year, and his offense is pretty much back on track now (he's just an inconsistent 3-point shooter now, not a terrible one). Gordon is obviously a lot better.

I'm not convinced he'll always be streaky like that. To me, he looks like a guy fixing his shot. He's hot and cold during games, but I notice that it is his release point that changes with the hot/cold. When he's releasing at the top of his shot, he's solid. That just needs to get more consistent, and I think it probably will. His 3-point shot is streaky, and it may always be to some degree, but his mid-range shot is starting to look like money, and I think he's getting that. If we can keep guys on the floor with him who can shoot, it opens up that game for him. Not saying I think Dipo is going to be a 22-25 a night guy, but the many ways he can score could get him close to 20 a night if he gets that release point fixed on a permanent basis, and if he can have enough space to work the mid-range every night.

I am thoroughly basketball deprived right now. Need this game to start soon... :dustball:

First off, I'm not worried about what other teams have to do for us to get into the playoffs. I want this team to be in the playoffs, but the goal is a .500 record. That should have us in the thick of things, and it's hard to imagine a team with a winning record missing the playoffs, even in this year's East, so 19 wins I think gets us in almost definitely. More to the point, the way I look at our schedule is this: we have to win two thirds of our tough games. Here's how I define that: We have 7 games that we absolutely should win - 2 against the 76ers, 1 against the Nets, 1 against the Suns, 1 against the Lakers, 1 Home Game against the Nuggets, 1 Home Game against the Bucks. In each of those games we are either clearly the better team or have a home game and are marginally better. We must win 6 out of 7 of those games. Doable, but actually not easy. We have 5 games we really should lose - 2 against Golden State, 1 against Cleveland, 1 against Toronto, 1 in Boston. In each of these games, we are playing either a top 5 team in the league or on the road against a top conference team we have little chance of winning the season series with. We must win 1 of these games. Cleveland is doable, as is Boston, and one of the other three is not out of the question. We have 18 tough games, each against teams that are either in playoff contention - but not exactly a top conference team or are at least solid teams we have to play on the road. If you're doing the math, 6-1 in the cupcake games and 1-4 in the nightmare games gets us 7 wins. 2/3 of our 18 tough games gets us to 19 wins. It's doable, but it's going to take a nearly December-like run against better competition.

It wouldn't shock me to see us go with that lineup down the stretch quite a bit. Two of the problems with playing Elf in the 4th is that defense gets more aggressive and he makes too many mistakes. Defenses will be able to afford less aggression with Jennings, and he won't make as many mistakes. But starting him... I can only see that if he comes out totally balling like an all-star. Not inconceivable, but I doubt it.

I think whether we think about keeping Jennings is completely dependent on him, which is what you want. If he comes back to looking like an all-star caliber player like he was last year before the injury, you give him a contract, probably, as long as we make up a few games in the playoff race and the team looks good with him in there. He's still young. If the injury heals, it heals. Likely we'll he won't get any monstrous offers anyway, considering it would be less than half a year of stellar play, and there are at least three other starter-quality PGs out there this FA, like Conley, Rondo, Deron Williams. So yea, if he comes in looking great, the teams looks better with him in there, you pay him and play him, unless you have some star player lined up for that money. Maybe you push for a team option year two, depending on what kind of interest he's getting. But honesty, it is up to him to earn a contract. Same for Ersan, by the way. We need a stretch 4 going forward, so if the team looks really good with him out there, you pay him his contract next year. Again, baring a huge star lined up.

Does Brooklyn have that kind of money? :lol: