Justin Jaudon

I don't disagree that Oladipo had his flaws. But pretending that he wasn't an overall very good player is just blind. Trying to pretend guys like him are a dime a dozen is ridiculous. We gave up a significant asset, and a lottery pick. Ibaka has to earn that. I've not seen anyone compare Vic to Kobe, or even Wade, in expressing dislike for the trade. I have seen people worried that we gave up an above-average starter for a 12/7 guy who is statistically declining.

Wait, so does he handle the ball a lot or doesn't he.? I mean, you do understand how usage rates work, right? Essentially, your argument is that despite every statistic saying otherwise, Fournier is a better passer because Dipo handles the ball more. Actually, given the fact that Fournier apparently is never asked to make plays or initiate the offense (which watching games shows is actually not true anyway, but I will play Devil's advocate here), why does he turn it over so much?

HHM, I get that you really love this trade. But I've seen very few people actually whining about losing Vic. Losing Vic for a 12/7 guy who has declined the last 2 years has people frustrated. It could work out, but ridiculing people who don't like the trade and pretending that Oladipo is a scrub makes no sense.

We're not getting a new PG.

This would make sense if their usage rates weren't so similar.

Oladipo's 4.0 to 2.7 career assist to turnover ratio, with TOs steadily declining while assist #s stayed consistent, looks pretty good compared to Fournier's 1.9 to 1.4. That's a considerable difference.

Stats back up pretty well that he's an objectively better passer than Fournier. I'm not overrating him, I'm just also not pretending he sucked to convince myself this trade was a slam dunk. Oladipo was an above-average passer for a 2G. Stats back that up. Fournier is an average passer for a 2G. Stats back that up.

Yes, no, barely, no, no... Have ever watched Victor Oladipo play? I mean, really, you would not even have to. Just look at the stats. You can make the argument that Evan is a better shooter and finisher. You'd be right. But Evan does not make cuts off the ball. And he is without any doubt a worse ballhandler and a far worse passer. Comments like that make it hard to take you seriously.

Definitely 2. 2014/15 should have been a push for the playoffs in a very week East, not a bottom 5 team. We didn't need to actually make the playoffs that year, but we needed to not suck horribly, like we did. There was no progress at all until this past season, and even that was a disappointment.

As I said earlier, Mario wasn't asked to create offense because he turned the ball over nearly as often he scored. Skiles wasn't an idiot; he wasn't going to ask a kid that prone to turnovers to create offense.

This is just untrue, especially with Evan. Dipo didn't actually have the ball in his hands all that much, considering. The team actually shared the ball really well, with everyone getting pretty equal opportunity. Vuc had the highest usage, followed by Dipo, then Fournier and Payton just behind him. Dipo was much better at sharing the ball than Fournier or Mario. And Mario's usage was low by comparison not because Dipo's was so high, but because Mario's TO % was astronomical. Fournier had the ball every bit as much as Dipo, really. And blaming Mario's usage as a catch-and-shoot guy on Dipo having the ball too much is just silly.

Beat me to it. A PG in today's NBA does actually need to be at least a decent outside shooter. That is a must for a successful team. Orlando is trying to bandage up the offense by filling it with guys who are elite shooters, but can't play defense. Ibaka helps with interior D, but trading Oladipo to get that is in many ways another symptom of this GMs love for Elfrid Payton.

But they didn't really adjust anything, because at Deandre Jordan as a max in 2015 is way different than Serge Ibaka as a max in 2017. I agree that Serge might be, if he has a career resurgence, worth the 2015 max. But unless he becomes a completely different player, he's not going to be worth the 2017 max. I'm glad you can see Ibaka getting 15 and 12 with us, but I just don't see him ever getting 12 rebounds a game. There just isn't any indication that he's capable of that. Like I said, he's at best a very good rim protector who can hit open shots. That's not worth 35 mil a year, even with the cap at 119 or whatever.

Rob does. He's building the entire team around Payton, really. Look at what we've done since Payton arrived. We've jettisoned every player who isn't an elite shooter at their position except Gordon (please don't tell me he's next). Moe Harkless was made useless because he couldn't play with Elf. Harris was given away for cap space because he couldn't make up for Elf's poor shooting. Dipo has now been traded for rim protection because he couldn't make up for Elf's poor shooting. Elf isn't just anchoring our PG spot, he's anchoring our whole team.

Just saying, if a 12/7 guys is a max player for sure, maybe the league should adjust the concept of max contracts.

Oladipo is replaceable in that we have 2 guys who can play his position (assuming we re-sign Fournier). Oladipo's defense is not replaceable by anyone currently on the roster. This was a team with one good perimeter defender. Now it's a team without one. Oladipo's rebounding is not replaceable by any 2G on this roster. Oladipo's mid-range game game is not replaceable by any 2G currently on this roster. By replacing Dipo with Fournier or Mario, we upgrade from a serviceable shooter to a good one, at the expense of defense, rebounding, and offensive versatility. Those things are what Ibaka has to make up for. The last one he will not help with, even if he has the best year of his career. The second one he's only ever been average. Both Vuc and Gordon are better rebounders than Ibaka. Ibaka is at best a high level defensive big who can make open shots. We traded away a high level defensive wing who can score in a variety of ways, run an offense for short stints, and rebound well for a guard. I'm not seeing how Oladipo is replaceable at this point, much less beyond so. I like Ibaka. I was excited when I heard we got him. But Dipo is not easily replaceable. That's just not true.

I'm waiting for him to actually bounce back in Orlando before I'm really on board. Regardless of excuses, we traded a young player who is above average on both sides of the floor for a 12/7 guy who's a middle-tier shot-blocker. We traded a guy on the up for a guy declining. It's on Ibaka to prove that he's not declining, just poorly used. It isn't encouraging that he was basically pushed out by Steven Adams, a guy with the potential to be Andrew Bogut with slightly better scoring and less rim protection.

I have been a huge Oladipo supporter the last two years. His 45 point game against Cleveland will stand out as a highlight. I've always said he'll be an integral 3rd best player on a championship team, and now he has that chance. I wish him the best.

The best comparison I've seen for Dipo is a mix of Iguodala and Ginobili.

Morning after the trade, I pretty much have the same feelings I did last night. I like Ibaka, but I think he's a 5 in today's NBA, so we traded our second best scorer for a non-scorer who forces us to trade or bench our best scorer. We now desperately need scoring. I don't trust that Fournier or Mario can replace what Dipo gave us. They're better shooters (actually, that's assumption with Mario, but I'm comfortable making that assumption). Fournier is slightly better driving to the basket, but I am very skeptical he'll be as good going against quicker guards. Neither are as good overall at scoring or passing, at this point. The difference on defense is huge. Fournier is not a terrible defender, but he'll struggle against small-ball guards and switching on PGs, which Dipo excelled at. Mario has talent on that end, but he's got a long way to go. We now have no above-average perimeter defender. That's a problem when the league is all about perimeter scoring. We still have to make more moves to make this roster work. Ibaka is not going to be happy playing beside Vuc. Gordon is not a 3, especially not with Payton at PG. So Orlando still has to get a real 3, and we still have a Vucevic problem. This is another notch in Elf's belt. Harris was unusable because our PG required us to have an elite shooter at the 3. Dipo is gone because our PG requires us to have an elite shooter at 2G. Skiles left at least partly because he disagreed with Hennigan on Elf (Skiles we replaced with a coach at least as good and probably better, but a fourth coach in 2 years is a problem on a young team). Vuc is even more exposed on D, and thus almost unusable, because our PG is also bad at defending the PnR. Our team is being built around a heavily flawed PG who at this point has shown the rarest flashes of of being serviceable. Now, Ibaka could be a beast in this new situation. Mario could explode. Gordon could explode. Elf could turn out to be not terrible. We probably will sign a 3, and maybe said 3 will be great. But at least 3 of those things have to happen for us to even make the playoffs.

Dipo could play with Gordon and Hezonja. This looks at this point to be more about choosing Payton over Dipo than anything else. Which, in my opinion, is a terrible mistake.

Pretty much. Ibaka has to go back to the borderline all-star he used to be, because Dipo still has that potential to be a Jimmy Butler, Andre Iguodala style two-way player. People saying Oladipo is easily replaceable understate what exactly he is at this point. He has all the makings of an elite defender at 2G, and also he can score in a variety of ways. There actually aren't many guys you can say that about. Now, if Serge comes in and plays like Serge from three years ago, I suppose it's worth it. But Payton also has to develop into not a bottom 3 starting PG, and either Mario has to show vast improvement over an objectively bad rookie season or Fournier has to prove he can be consistent offensively as a 2. Because all of these things weigh on the decision to give up Oladipo for a player on the decline.

That's okay. You could probably still get a job setting economic policy.

Not about Shabazz. He has tied himself to Elf with a titanium rope, and at this point he's not going to give anyone else a chance at taking minutes away from Elf.

They all could, but Rob isn't going to let that happen