Justin Jaudon

This. I'm not totally against tanking, but we failed our rebuild not because we didn't tank well enough. We failed because of this, not valuing our assets properly. We overvalued bad assets and undervalued good ones.

Dipo, Giannis, and CJ McCollum were in the worst draft in 10-15 years, though. Two of those guys were mid first-rounders. Jokic was a second rounder in that draft, I think.

Again, I think Skiles actually had us going in the right direction. Hennigan made some bad moves in the sped up process, but let's be honest, the process should have worked, if we'd just chosen the right players to bet on. Think about it. We had two really good players in Victor and Aaron, both of whom were playing well and developing by the end of the Skiles year. Skiles clearly wanted to upgrade the PG position, which we should have done. He didn't seem too fond of Vuc, either, pulling him for long periods during games and even bringing him off the bench some at the end of the year (something we've all wanted to see). We won 35 games (a ten game improvement from the previous season), a total that in a lot of years would put you in contention for a playoff spot in the East. We were a team on the rise, if not quite as fast as we'd hoped. But Skiles punked out, and Hennigan lost his freakin' mind, trading our best player for garbage, forcing our second-best player to learn a new position, and spending crap-loads of money on terrible FA contracts. I have little doubt if Skiles had just manned up, stuck around, we would have been a playoff team last year, and no doubt we would have been by this season. We were already headed in that direction, a Skiles team has never missed the playoffs in its second season, and - most importantly - we likely wouldn't have traded Victor Oladipo. My point is that Hiring Skiles - a win-now coach - and changing gears to win-now mode isn't why we are terrible now. We got what we needed out of the tank, two potential All-Stars. We needed to switch to trying to win. Our management just failed the win-now switch on an epic level. We did everything you aren't supposed to do in that situation. Instead of building on what we'd already done, we panicked. Hennigan thought he was smarter than everyone in choosing Evan over 'Dipo. Vogel thought he could go against the league in playing a massive lineup with two guys who weren't shooting well. Again, we had the talent to switch gears, we just traded half of it away and ruined our cap flexibility.

You're missing the point. Oladipo makes us better. Look at Indiana's roster. It's not really any better than ours, but they're a playoff team because he is a beast for them. Nurkic, hood, WCS, Oubre make us better by being better assets than Elfrid Payton or Mario Hezonja (I am not willing to say Hezonja is as good as Oubre yet, because Oubre has done it a bit longer; Hezonja is fully welcome to prove me wrong). Nurkic is a much better defensive player than Vucevic (he plays harder is really the only difference, but that is how defense is). They are probably a wash overall (Vuc is much better offensively), but, as a center, defense is more important, which means Nurkic is the better asset (because we could also just keep him for fairly cheap as a starter without killing our defense like Vuc does). Hood is better than Elfrid, clearly. He's willing to come off the bench, good scorer, average defender. He would make it super easy to get rid of Fournier, and apparently he's worth Jae Crowder, which is a good if different bench piece. WCS has been solid this year. He's definitely worth more right now than Mario. Gary Harris would work just fine as Oladipo's excellent backup, 6th man. Probably we'd have to trade him rather than pay him, but think what we could get for him. Turner would indeed be nice. For once, I would have won that draft, because I loved Turner and wanted us to pick him (normally I'm not good with draft projections). I think he's the starting center on a playoff team, and is a terrific asset.

No. Us being terrible at money and asset management, and not being great at drafting is why we are where we are today. Imagine for a moment we're building around Oladipo and Gordon right now, with Sabonis as a nice bench asset. Imagine we didn't give up two 1sts and a 2nd for Elfrid Payton. Imagine we didn't pay Bismack Biyombo all the money in the world. Imagine we traded Vucevic two years ago when he was still an asset people would give something for. Ditto for Evan Fournier. Imagine if, instead of Elfrid Payton and Mario Hezonja, we had drafted any one of Jusuf Nurkic, Gary Harris, Rodney Hood, Clint Capela, Willie Cauley-Stein, Myles Turner, or Kelly Oubre; any of those guys would have been somewhat reasonable picks for us, drafted within the next ten picks and would not have been considered major reaches. Would we be competing for a championship this year? Not likely. But we'd be a playoff team, young, with lots of assets to get better, and not drowning in bad contracts. We were fine at tanking. We had 3 picks in the top 5. Two have turned into really good players, one an All-Star. Unfortunately, we got rid of the All-Star for Terrence Ross, we botched the 3rd top 5 pick, and we spent all our excess money on garbage.

Cleveland sort of tanked for their players, in that Lebron would not have come their without the multiple #1 picks getting them Kevin Love. Fun fact: Kyrie was not a result of tanking. That was not their pick. But yeah, Houston did what I suggested, as did Boston. Golden State is an anomaly. They drafted multiple Hall of fame type players outside the top 5 within five years of each other. That's just...insane luck, mixed with brilliant scouting, mixed with great money management. Then they got Durant basically because of a league-wide salary cap anomaly. San Antonio tanked for a year 20 years ago and has never been out of the top five teams in the league since. Toronto is sort of a cheap, knock-off Golden State, in some ways, except they didn't draft all those guys. None of the league's best teams got great by tanking traditionally, though. Closest is probably, what, Washington? OKC, maybe? Philly in a few years if they continue to develop, sure; but not yet, and maybe not ever. OKC was at one point the poster child, but they never won it all, and they botched it horribly in the end. But you'll never convince people of this. Best not to try.

There are other ways to win than tanking. Using cap space wisely, taking on good pieces from teams looking to start tanking, for one. If we aren't going to tank, we have to start using cap space as an asset. Look for solid players other teams aren't going to re-sign due to overload at the position, or guys who are being used poorly. Right now this strategy would look like us showcasing Evan Fournier and then trading him for assets. Same with Vuc. Get picks (AND USE THEM, FOR CHRIST'S SAKE!!!), get young guys, whatever. But don't ever sign bad contracts, and don't get too attached to any one prospect. Develop young guys, but know that they may be used to build further assets. Houston did this back in the day, slowly building a solid-but-not-good team, then cashing in a bunch of assets to get Harden. New Jersey is trying to do this now, but I think they may go back to tanking once their picks become their own. Boston did this, really (though it helps when you get the biggest trade robbery in recent memory). Dallas may be doing this, now... sort of. The problem is we don't seem to be tanking OR using our cap space wisely. Hopefully the new management does the latter a bit better than Hennigan did. So far, they've been very cap-conservative, with the Mario situation and the Elfrid trade. But we have no real clue what they'll do once we have some cap room. The fact that we never seemed to be actively trying to trade Fournier makes me think we're still in evaluation mode.

The entire point is that Skiles was right based on the results. Of course it's results oriented thinking, I'm reviewing Skiles' dislike of Payton now that we can see the results. I have admitted it would have seemed a nutty, but it would have been the correct move. The betting on the Eagles with bill money is a bad analogy, by the way. I don't have inside knowledge of the Eagles' chances of winning. Skiles coached Elfrid for a while, then determined he wouldn't measure up fast enough. It seems he had reason to believe this, whether it be the kid's attitude or acumen. The Super Bowl betting analogy would be closer if I, say, knew that Tom Brady wasn't playing and Bill Belliceck had a mental breakdown. The entire point of this conversation is to say that maybe Skiles knew what he was talking about. Again, you just assume that he couldn't have. No. He didn't. Or, at least, we have no reason to believe that. There is nothing suggesting it. All the reports I've read state that he was unhappy mid-season; he mentioned that he was questioning his decision to take the job to Adrien Griffin, who blabbed to management; management had a meeting with Skiles to discuss his issues, which seemed to be about the inexperienced roster; in an attempt at appeasement, management made the Tobias trade; something that, again, needed to be done, but was botched in execution by the GM. Never have I heard of Skiles threatening to quit and giving an ultimatum. Any mention of that would have been all over the news. Also, if he'd been that crazy interested in 'his guys' he probably would have started one of them, especially since, as bad as he was, Jennings played at least as well as Payton the rest of that season. Just because you believe something doesn't make it literally true.

How do you know this? History says it was right, because he has not helped us win, and he eventually got traded for a second round pick. You can say that Skiles had no way of knowing that he would not develop in important areas, but you don't know what Skiles knew. Maybe the kid has an attitude problem and won't be coached. Maybe he's just stupid. I don't know. But Skiles, after praising him all summer having only seen him from the outside, got pretty sour on him pretty quick once he actually started coaching him. I'll put it this way. In Payton's second year, we probably could have gotten more for him than a second round pick. However much it would have seemed a foolish choice, trading him then would have worked out for us better than keeping him. So... you're just wrong. Giving up on Payton 2 months into his second year would have been the right call, however crazy it might have seemed at the time.

Yep. Skiles was right that Gordon was better than Tobias. Tobias needed to be traded, as he and Gordon weren't working on the floor together. Pretty sure it was Rob Hennigan who was the GM who got nothing for him. We can all cry conspiracy that Skiles 'wanted his guys and forced a trade', but I really doubt Skiles demanded this specific trade. (also, Ilyasova has been really solid since we traded him; he's not Tobias, but he's not making $17 million a year, either) The Tobias trade was a win-now move, trying to get players in needed positions with some familiarity who could help right away. Jennings was a borderline All-Star before the injury, and we took a chance that he had recovered. If he had, we would have had a PG who wasn't garbage on D, and who didn't wilt at the end of games. He didn't recover. It's a shame, but really - and I can't stress this enough - the only problem with the trade was Hennigan not getting a pick or a prospect thrown in. By all accounts, he didn't even ask. Not that any of that is relevant to what I was saying. Skiles was right that Elfrid Payton was not going to improve in the areas we needed him to, at least not fast enough for the team to make the playoffs the next season or the next, which was what management wanted (see the subsequent spending spree). I never implied Skiles was right about everything. I only lamented that PFTW was refusing to give Skiles credit for wanting to upgrade the position years ago.

God forbid we give Skiles credit for anything... Skiles was absolutely right that Payton was not going to make the team better in the timeline he was working on. We were in playoff push mode, and Payton was not getting better at defense, which was killing us when we also had a poor defensive Center. A year and a half later, Skiles is proven right when we trade Payton basically because he isn't improving defensively, and you argue that because you think he deserved the chance to work out his issues that Skiles was still somehow wrong? Could it be that Skiles just knew more about Payton's game and mentality than you? We don't have to like Skiles. I don't like him. But seriously, we can give him SOME credit for seeing who Payton was and pushing management to move on.

I feel like I should say something, since I at one time was the biggest and maybe earliest major critic of Payton on the board. I hope the kid plays well. But the reason he didn't work out was the reason I always said he wouldn't. He can't play within a system, especially defensively. I called him the NBA Lavar Arrington, and I stand by that. And just as Lavar made a couple of Pro-Bowls on some bad teams, I wouldn't be shocked if Payton looks really good in Phoenix, from a raw numbers standpoint. But he won't make Phoenix better, just like he never made Orlando better. Maybe one day he'll learn to play within a system, not roam around looking to make big plays. But Orlando gave him 3 and a half seasons and he never made real strides with that problem. It was time to move on, and what we got seems like it was market value. That said, I wish the best for him. He seemed like a good kid, if a little gloomy. Also, it would sure be nice to have DSJ right now.

But Vogel was supposed to be our great savior after the Wicked Witch Scott Skiles quit. I certainly remember seeing a lot of cheering and songs of "Ding dong, the Witch is dead" on this board when he left and we got Vogel. Now it's Vogel's fault because he doesn't hold players accountable and they are doing their own thing? Which kind of coach do we want, people? We've tried a cheerleader in Vaughn, a drill sergeant in Skiles, and an amateur psychologist in Vogel. Skiles' short tenure was the closest we've looked to heading in the right direction; but his emotional instability KO'd that. I think we need to pray Dallas fires Rick Carlisle and we can somehow convince him to pick up this rebuild. We need someone who's adaptable, will hold players accountable, is consistent with his personality and his vision, and can handle the pressure; and that's Carlisle from all we know of him. (or maybe Jameer Nelson retires and wants to coach, a la Jason Kidd... hehe).

Zach LaVine, Gary Harris (better defender than EP, so no, EP doesn't do everything else but scoring better), Jusuf Nurkic, Clint Capela: all guys who would definitely be better for us right now. Probably Rodney Hood. Maybe T.J. Warren, Dario Saric, or Bogdan Bogdanovic. As far as point guards we could have had instead of him... In 2014, we could have just stuck with Jameer. In 2015, Mudiay, who's not a lot worse than Payton and two years younger; in 2015 FA, we could have made a run at Reggie Jackson or Goran Dragic. We definitely could have gotten Jeremy Lin, Cory Joseph, probably could have gotten Darren Collison, or just re-signed Jameer; none of that would have been considerably worse than having to start Payton. In 2016, we could have traded for Jeff Teague or George Hill easily, which both would have been an upgrade; or we could have signed Lin. This past offseason, we could have drafted DSJ, which would have been better long-term. We could have gone after Darren Collison or Tyreke Evans, which would be better for us right now. So, yeah, it would have been hard to be in a better position at the PG spot (aside from drafting DSJ likely making us much better long-term). But I'd love to be in a situation where we were grooming a young guy like DSJ while Collison, Evans, or Hill starts, rather than now, where we're praying a PG is available through the draft coming up, as Elfrid is pretty clearly not a long-term starter on a good team and there just aren't good PGs available in FA anytime soon.

Yeah, it's not like we could have drafted Myles Turner or Devin Booker or Bobby Portis, or Willy Cauley-Stein or Trey Lyles or Kelly Oubre or Terry Rozier or Rondae Hollis-Jefferson. All the quality starter-level talent was gone by then, sure.

I agree on Trae, but don't sleep on Doncic. Dude is not Mario. He's actually putting up numbers right now, is leading the best team in his league. Doncic is a beast.

But I was assured when we traded Oladipo that players like him were a dime a dozen, while unicorns like Ibaka were pure gold...SMH

That's not untrue. It's just a shame Vucevic won't recognize that his skillset is best used on the bench. I guess I also think that we have more of a chance of being a good team with Vuc in the starting lineup than Payton, because I saw us play well with Vuc there; haven't seen the same with Payton in the SL.

Just a thought: Who is more of a problem, Elfrid or Vucevic? My thinking is that a lot of people think Vucevic is untradeable because his value to us is greater than his value would be to any other team. I could see a healthy and more experienced Isaac making up for a lot of the issues with Vucevic. It's not a perfect situation, and Vuc will always have his problems, but he does have value on the offensive end, and he has his moments as a defender - and oh how rare they are. Payton, though, through long stretches has no value at all. Sometimes he looks great, usually for a quarter or two before fading into nothing again. Even serviceable Payton is as rare as okay defense Vucevic. I think almost everyone here sees that we should be starting DJ Augustine at PG, because however much his size limits his defense, he at least fights around screens and doesn't generally lose focus and allow wide open threes. Offensively, his shooting really helps the offense spread out and attack. When putting Augustine in the SL is an obvious improvement, does that not tell us that Payton is more the problem than Vuc. Of course, because Payton has exactly 0 value as a trade asset, it would cost Vuc to fix the PG situation. This team is a mess. Imagine if instead of throwing money at Biyombo and Augustine last offseason, we'd just looked to sign Hill to a multi-year deal, or Teague. But no, that might have threatened Payton... seriously, I hate being right about that kid.

This is just patently untrue. Fournier was a slightly more efficient scorer for a single season (contract year), and he was demonstrably worse at literally everything else on the floor. He was a worse defender, a worse passer, a worse decision maker in late-game situations, and a much worse rebounder. Vic was worse at OKC, just like established star Paul George is worse at OKC. There's a factor that is perhaps missed by your assessment, namely Russell "I can do whatever I want now" Westbrook. Vic was always better than Fournier; he's just now waaaaaay better than Fournier.

This is crap. This is like saying Skiles quitting wasn't Skiles' fault, because the team had issues at PG that Hennigan wouldn't fix. No. Skiles' job was to coach the team. He quit. Hennigan's job was to manage the team under the direction of ownership, and he failed at that. Was he allowed to do things exactly his way and only his way? Probably not. Are you, at your job? Is anyone, ever? He clearly chose Fournier over Oladipo. There's no reason to think ownership would have made him do that. He clearly thought Ibaka would be better than he was, bringing in his old buddy - along with Green - reminiscent of Otis Smith. Ownership didn't make him think that. He clearly thought Payton was a franchise leading PG. Ownership didn't put that notion in his head. Stop defending the GM who took a winning franchise and turned it into a laughing stock.

Um...no. Hennigan treated Dipo like **** when he was here, never committed to him, then traded him for garbage. That, and Harris is playing great mostly because he's able to play almost all of his minutes at his natural position, PF. Which is why we traded him. He's a good PF, but Gordon is an even better one. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to have Harris over Evan, and I do think there's a possibility that he and Gordon could be alright together with how well they're shooting. But I think we're in good shape going forward at SF as long as Isaac can get healthy and bulk up.

Great trade for both teams.Nets get two young reclamation projects who might pan out with better opportunities, for a player who's not part of their future. 76ers get a really good backup PF for two guys they weren't using. This is how a basketball team is supposed to make trades.

Um... I expected him to be a 20+ point scorer this year. Can't find where I said it, but I know I did somewhere. I am not shocked at all that he's so good (I'm surprised his shooting is THIS efficient, but I knew he would continue to improve and that his volume would be high). I've said for years he should be special when everything clicked for him. Said last year that he was in the exact worst place in the league for his skill set in OKC. So, no, literally at least me and Victor Oladipo expected him to play this good. Everyone was shocked because they didn't understand how terribly Orlando managed him, then how much worse OKC managed him.

It really is infuriating. We had a guy who would now fit perfectly as our no. 1 scoring option, and we traded him - along with a decent 1st-round pick - for Serge Ibaka, a declining player at our second-best pick's position, because we thought Fournier was just as good (and, I suspect, maybe even more because we worried that however good Dipo became he wouldn't become a good enough shooter to allow us to keep Payton, with whom Hennigan was obsessed). But that shouldn't be surprising, since we never committed to Oladipo while he was here. Not really. We knew that, coming out of the draft, Dipo was a guy who would need time to learn how to score efficiently in volume. He was a worker, a guy who built himself into a top draft pick, someone we knew was talented, but had never really been given a green light to lead an offense. Much like we're seeing with Gordon, Vic needed time to not only develop his skills, but learn how specifically to use them in volume. But what did we do with him? Stuck him on the bench most of his rookie season, then picked up Evan Fournier to suck away minutes and offensive opportunities after that. We handed the offense over to Afflalo, then a mixture of Vucevic and Harris, then finally we let Vic take the reigns a bit. Shocker, he was a 20 point a night guy post all-star his second year (at only a slight efficiency drop). What did we do when we saw that he was developing as a scorer? We drafted another wing scorer (a complete bust, when we could have drafted a big like Turner or Cauley-Stein, or even a wing defender at the 3 like Justise Winslow, Stanley Johnson, or even Kelly Oubre, Justin Anderson or Rondae Hollis-Jefferson). We then benched Dipo early in the next season, only to bring him back into the starting lineup and feature him again after the All-star break. And he put up nearly 20 points per night again post-All-star-break, this time improving his efficiency to very respectable levels. Then we traded him, because Rob Hennigan is an idiot. Now in Indiana, with the keys to an offense, he actually looks like the guy we all hoped he could be, the guy he kept assuring us he was going to be. And he's not putting up empty numbers. His team is winning. They traded Paul George, and, mostly because Oladipo is a monster this year, they're somehow playing better. We should have a core of Dipo and Gordon, two hard-working guys who look right now like they would be a brilliant one-two punch to build an offense around, not to mention both being plus defenders. Instead, we have Gordon taking the 3rd or 4th most shots on the team while we try to build a team around Fournier and Vucevic.