Franchise408

Hennigan should have gotten better value for one of our best players And yes, we should have abandoned Hennigan's plan long ago. it, and he, are failures, as is the whole "tank" ideology. The Harris trade didn't suck because we traded Harris. It sucked because we got nothing in return.

He pushed for the trade. Hennigan was the one who got 0 value for it.

Then Skiles is the only smart one in the bunch. Maybe we should have kept him and flushed Hennigan. Telling that Skiles resigned, claiming "I'm not the right guy to coach this team" Maybe because he wants to win and Hennigan clearly doesn't.

For one, stick to his stated goal. The entire purpose of clearing cap space was to be a player in the Kevin Durant sweepstakes. While we likely wouldn't have gotten him, we didn't even make a call for Durant. So basically, we spent 4 years saving cap space for Bismack Biyombo. He probably shouldn't have traded Harris, and damn sure shouldn't have traded Oladipo. And if he absolutely had to trade for Dipo, it damn sure shouldn't have been for Ibaka, when between Vucevic and Biyombo and Gordon, we had the 4 and 5 basically locked down. Eric Gordon was a free agent and, if I remember correctly, was a pretty big name on the wish list around here. I don't recall every single free agent that has hit the market the last few years, but I do know that free agents like Jeff Green, DJ Augustine, and Jodie Meeks aren't the type of talent you build around young talent with. Right now, we really only have 2 positions in good position for the future: PF and backup center. I like Payton, but he's still a question mark if he's gonna take the next step or not. But overall I do like him and I don't think PG is our most pressing need. But we do need clear and big upgrades at the 2 and 3, as well as possibly an upgrade over Vuc at the 5 as well. Not to mention just about everything off the bench, backup center aside.

That's literally your version of team building. Suck for decades on the off chance you finally luck into an all time great player. I'd say "thank god you're not our GM", but you basically are with Hennigan at the helm

Yes. 15 years, and it still took luck. So tell me again how "tanking" is a viable strategy? You just proved my point.

I'll concede the Iguodala move on one point - I was mistaken in my history and was mistakenly remembering the Howard trade as when we had already drafted Oladipo. Iguodala could have been paired with Oladipo, but we didn't have him at that point, so sure, trading for a vet on an expiring deal wouldn't have done much to build for the future. However, we haven't been able to pair our young talent - which we have - with any supplemental talent, and as such, we continue to waste away in the lottery spinning our wheels, not doing anything. The highest draft pick on Golden State is a #7. We've had 3 picks higher than that with nothing to show for it. Klay was not a top 10 pick, Draymond was not even a first round pick. The Spurs haven't had a lottery pick in over a decade. Their last lottery pick is now retired, and they are still a top contending team with a bunch of low picks. Miami built their championships around superstar free agents. Without Shaq, or later LeBron and Bosh to help out Wade, Wade has zero championships and not much success in the league. Nowsitzki was a #9 overall pick for Dallas. Again, we have had far higher picks than that with nothing to show for it. Kobe Bryant was not even a top 10 pick, and was acquired by the Lakers for Vlade Divac. They then paired him with a superstar in Shaq via free agency, and later, Kobe led the Lakers to 2 more championships with free agent acquisitions such as Pau Gasol and Lamar Odom. The Pistons won their championship without the aid of a top draft pick. Their roster was built of castoffs from other teams and assembled to a championship and a 2nd Finals appearance. So of the past 20 years, the only teams that were molded by the "tank" philosophy of sucking for the highest possible picks, were Cleveland (drafting Kyrie, trading Wiggins for Love), Chicago (drafting Jordan and Pippen), and kinda sorta the Spurs, who didn't "tank", their all time center went out that season with injury, and so their pick of another all time player was instantly paired with a returning all time center to create a very dominate duo. You have the Lakers (5 championships), the Pistons (1 championship), the Mavericks (1 championship), the Warriors (1 championship), and the Heat (3 championships), who were built outside of the draft. That's 11 of the last 20 championships that were won without the draft. And that's giving you the 5 Spurs championships which are more of an anomaly to the whole "tank" philosophy, as the core of that team, outside of Duncan, were all low drafted players. Ginoboli, 2nd round. Parker, 28th overall. Leonard, 15th overall. So really, that's 16 of the last 20 championships that haven't built via the "tank" philosophy, and haven't needed to "suck" for higher draft picks to win championships. That leaves you with the last 2 Bulls championships (Jordan and Pippen), the Celtics (trading high picks for Allen and Garnett), and the Cavaliers (drafting Kyrie and trading Wiggins for Love) Hennigan has had the draft picks. And I think that most of us would even agree that he's done as well as possible with those picks. So what's missing? Putting the talent around them. As every single one of these championship franchises have done. They don't continue to tank. They draft a guy, and then put talent around him. The last 20 years of championship history completely contradict your entire "tank" philosophy, yet you continue spouting it as if it's some kind of competent and viable team building strategy. You are wrong.

We didn't draft T-Mac, and if it weren't for Grant Hill's ankles, we would have been a championship contender then as well. Drafting is not a sure fire way to build your team. For every team that has built a franchise around a Jordan / LeBron / Duncan / Wade, there have been many more than stay perpetually in the lottery because they have built a losing culture. None of those star draft players got anywhere on their own. More help was needed. We have had plenty of top picks, but we have not added any outside talent to support them. We CAN be a playoff team with draft picks like Gordon and Payton, but we actually have to supplement them.

And? We should be okay with failure just because other franchises have failed harder? Absolutely not. That's the mentality that leads to the "tank" philosophy. "Just lose, because eventually you'll luck draft your way out of it" Sorry, I'm not content with being an irrelevant and losing franchise for decades, and that is not a model we should aspire to just because other franchises have failed for longer

People say nothing will change once Rob is fired, but things were plenty different before Rob got here. This franchise may have never gotten completely over the hump to win a championship, but before Rob got here, we had 2 conference championships and more playoff appearances than not. Rob's tenure here has turned us into a losing franchise now, our longest run in franchise history without a playoff appearance, and absolutely no signs of improving anytime soon. Blame Martins or whoever you want as much as you want, and I'm sure it's valid, but this WAS a winning franchise with routine post season appearances before Rob got here.

That Doc Rivers quote is classic code for "I'm about to leave here either on my own terms or not but I gotta keep a good public face." Idk how I feel about him as a GM. Probably better than I do Hennigan, but that's not saying much. I'd feel better with just about anyone at this point. Part of me would be excited for the GS guy, but, we already saw Alvin Gentry leave there and struggle, Walton too but that's a different circumstance as the Lakers are a **** show, and it seems reminiscent of the Hennigan move in the first place, bringing in a former SA and OKC assistant. But the most important thing right now is just get Hennigan out.

And he actually busted his ass to get back on the court. I will never understand why people boo Grant Hill, who worked Hardee for this organization, but cheer T-Mac, who trashed us and threw us under the bus on his way out.

I'm sure Festus Ezeli would be on our roster in no time.

He would get us built back up. He'd just drop an atomic bomb on it after a year of success.

I won't say I'm "done" if Gordon is traded, because I'll never leave my team, any of them, and Gordon is hardly the worst player to exit this team, but if Gordon goes, the demoralization I feel under Hennigan's tenure will grow to insurmountable levels. At least I have some levels of fun and excitement with Gordon, and a bit of hope left that he can still develop into a worthwhile piece for this team.

This. The Curry situation is basically proving my point that the tank method doesn't work. 6 teams had higher picks than Golden State. 6 teams whiffed on their picks, at least in regards to compared to Curry, though I'd say that Griffin and Harden aren't whiffs. This draft is proof positive that the draft is an imperfect science. Getting the #1 pick doesn't guarantee that you will get your superstar. Lots of busts at the #1 position. We had a #2 pick and traded that player away after only a few seasons. You're playing a "what if" scenario that entirely proves my point that "tanking for ping pong balls and draft position" is a strategy that relies on far too much luck, and circumstances that are both infrequent, and out of the control of anyone.

I guess it's a good thing then that I never suggested Iguodala as a foundational piece.

How high is high? Apparently, having a top 5 pick isn't good enough for this board for us tanking. So does that mean only a #1 pick is good enough? Because if it has to be a #1 pick, I can name tons of teams. Top 3? Top 5? Give me your criteria. But I will toss one out right now. Golden State. Not a single player on that roster was drafted by the Warriors higher than #7, and Durant was a free agent. Now give me your definition of a high pick, and I can answer your question for you. But remember, your criteria has to apply to the Magic too. If you are in insistence that the Magic have to tank for the #1 pick, then don't turn around and start telling me that your definition of a high pick is top 5. If top 5 meets your criteria of a top pick, then you also acknowledge that the Magic should have been able to rebuild with 3 consecutive top 5 picks, something they haven't been able to do.

Your philosophy is so broken and backwards it is ridiculous how far it is spread across this forum and how much time I am wasting trying to explain it to you. Your philosophy: suck suck suck, #1 pick, CHAMPIONSHIP! 6-8 seed sycks cuz that means mediocrity! You entirely neglect that a low playoff seeding is a stepping stone. Our team was a low seed before progressing to the top of the conference. Golden State was a low seed before progressing to championship level. You neglect that, as all these examples you are pointing out prove, drafting a star player alone is not enough to put you over. You MUST supplement that player with surrounding talent, which means free agency and trades. You neglect that not every draft is going to have that top notch franchise changing player, and sometimes you have to use other tools at your disposal to try to find it. We didn't draft T-Mac. We traded for him. All of these examples you try to cite are a bunch of teams still stuck in limbo because all they are doing is putting their eggs in the draft crap shoot basket. Minnesota has got a lot of great young talent that is doing nothing as a team. Philly has been tanking as long as us with nothing to show for it. We've been tanking with even less to show for it. You believe that a ping pong ball will magically solve all of our problems. But with out supplementing that player and having pieces around him, it won't. Even LeBron needed Wade and Bosh, and later, Kyrie and and Love. You neglect the importance of improvement of the players we already have. You'd rather watch our current players crash and burn in pursuit of some unicorn that may or may not come, instead of wanting to see the players we do have improve and develop into those types of players. Payton, Gordon, and Hezonja developing into productive players is far more important than watching them suck so we can maybe draft someone else at a higher spot that may or may not be any better.

And why would you include Oden on a list of successful draft picks? You cite a bunch of successful top picks, but then go on to say that all those teams are mediocre. I mean, I don't see Philly, Minnesota, or Chicago, with all their top picks, dominating the league with their tanking like tanking is supposed to do, right?

And then to top it off, you go and call Chicago mediocre, and then cite their team building model as a model to follow? Uh... What? No wonder I don't take your philosophy seriously.

So wait, by saying that what the Magic have been doing is bad, not mediocre, is supposed to disprove my point somehow?

And we can't count on losing and being the worst team in basketball on purpose to land a #1 pick and have an all time great ready and waiting for the pickings. It is a model of mediocrity that you are expecting all our problems to be solved by ping pong balls. The epitome of naivety.

No, we don't make it without Dwight. But we don't make it without those other pieces either. We damn sure don't make it without Rashard Lewis. We damn sure don't make it without Turkoglu. We don't even make it without Redick or Pietrus. Maybe you can say we don't do it without Jameer since he got hurt halfway through that year, but we didn't just say "oh well we have Dwight that's all we need", we brought in Rafer Alston because we wouldn't have made it without him either. Basketball is a team game. You can't just rely on drafting one guy to solve your problems. You need to keep adding pieces. And when the ping pong balls aren't falling your way, and when a LeBron James isn't coming out in the draft, you have to find other ways of building your team. Funny thing, between the 3 most dominant teams in the league right now, there's all of one top pick that was drafted by that team to turn their fortunes around. Kyrie. LeBron, free agent (yes he was drafted by Cleveland, but left for Miami and came back as a free agent). Love, trade. Steph, Klay, Draymond, drafted lower than top 5. Durant, free agent. Kahwi, Parker, Ginoboli, drafted lower than top 5. Gasol, free agent. Aldridge, free agent. You gotta drop down to the Celtics to find another player that was drafted top 5 by his team, and then you can add on Marcus Smart as a #6 pick as well. Isaiah Thomas? Trade. Crowder? Trade. It's almost like the top teams in the NBA are telling you tanking for top picks doesn't work.