Mike1989

I just don't see why the Knicks would be interested in Payton. They drafted Frank Ntilikina in the first round last year and apparently have high hopes for their rookie point guard. They also have Trey Burke on their roster. He's still only 25 years old and his per36 minute stats are very impressive - 20.6 ppg, 7.8 apg - on decent enough shooting percentages. I think they could move forwards with that young duo going forwards and keep Jarrett Jack around for a veteran presence. Adding Payton doesn't make much sense for them unless they plan to move Ntilikina to shooting guard, don't rate Burke long term, and Jack will leave when his deal expires or will be traded. For us, I would accept Charlotte's 2 second round picks for Payton because that is a decent enough return for someone that will likely be leaving. If we can build a stockpile of draft picks like Boston that would be the way forwards in this rebuild.

But EP and AG both need extensions. So if we are moving on from them or thinking about it, then you trade them now, or wait and sign and trade. The issue with the latter is if they sign a deal with a team with lacklustre options to send your way it might not be a good return. So trading them now might be "safer" and result in a deal more to our liking. I do agree that they are still young and look what Oladipo is doing in Indy. But we are a losing team that needs to find its way and drastic changes could and probably should be made to make that happen after different coaches have failed to make any real headway.

I'm not sure the Cavs would go for that, and if they did I'm not convinced we get the Nets pick. If LeBron bolts do they want to build around EP and AG and give them long term contracts? Unlikely. Would EP, Smith, AG, Love and TT make them think play offs? Doubtful even in the east unless they do like Oladipo and breakout on a new team. I think they'd want to retain that Nets pick and add another young player and possibly move Love for a pick and/or young talent to rebuild around. Would I trade IT and Crowder for EP and AG straight up? Probably not. Add the Cavs pick and it's still probably not. However if that Nets pick was included I would if I felt EP and AG are not part of the future.

Just as long as we aren't that team. We did that once already with Biyombo, last thing we need to do is add Smart and have them as our overpriced dynamic duo.

I can see why the Pistons have decided to add Griffin to pair with Drummond, but how many would take the Pistons roster ahead of the teams currently in the top eight? I'll be honest I don't think I would take them ahead of any of the teams currently in the top eight. Even a team like the Heat without an all star are arguably a better team because they have a well rounded line up combined with a strong philosophy, style of play and culture. Same goes for the Pacers who have only one all star, they have a well rounded line up combined with a strong philosophy, style of play and culture. The way I see it the Pistons will have a floor spacing problem based on their projected starting five. Maybe they can make some further moves to help, but it is going to be tough to see them push their way significantly up the eastern standings. And then factor in the cap situation with Jackson, Griffin and Drummond's hits over the next two seasons and they are going to be in a fairly tough position to make significant improvements to that roster. Maybe I'm wrong and this trio will have success, but personally I don't see them becoming a dominant force in the east.

It wouldn't surprise me if Kawhi gets his head turned by people outside of the Spurs organisation that causes an irreparable rift. How many times have we seen players in the modern era become unhappy with their situation because they think the grass is greener on the other side? Take Dwight for example. He bolted at the first chance he got and went to the Lakers. What's he done since leaving us? Nothing. No ring. No NBA finals appearance. He fell flat in LA. He then abandoned them and joined Houston, he did ok but arguably Houston's success was mostly down to James Harden. Then he left them for his hometown team, Atlanta, and they quickly showed him the door. Now he's in Charlotte and they are apparently ready to trade him somewhere to get his bloated contract off the books. Now I'm not still bitter at Dwight leaving us - I'm over that - but there is one example of a player that thought he could do better elsewhere rather than stay on a team that supported him and treated him very well. Dwight did come out not long ago and explain his exit, but as much as he probably wanted to try his hand elsewhere, I would not be surprised if he now regrets leaving us because he could have been a one team guy with us because he was our star. Don't get me wrong the Spurs organisation is seen as the organisation that teams want to emulate in the NBA. Pop has coached some great players and kept those great players together and happy. However, in this modern era many players seem more willing to leave their existing situations to go elsewhere to either play with their friends or to simply join super teams because that's the trend rather than try to win with their existing team. Kevin Durant walked away from OKC and joined Golden State. Paul George wanted out of Indiana. LeBron originally walked from Cleveland to Miami and then back to Cleveland. Players in this era seem fine with walking away, so like I said, it wouldn't surprise me if Kawhi became the next top tier player to move to another team.

You can look at his skill set and what he can and can't do. For instance he actually has decent shooting form, but that hasn't really translated to say 40% from the arc like it could with time and development. Likewise his skill playing defense could translate into being an elite defender, it hasn't done to date, but it could with time and development. You can be the most skilled or one of the most skilled but still need time and development for those skills to translate to on court success.

Agreed, Isaac arguably had the most upside but a case could have been made for Markkanen or Smith Jr. However, I don't want to go down the route of we should have picked this guy or that guy, rather I was merely pointing out that most prospects come out of college and carry some risk. Same goes for this class. There's prospects with lots of upside but they almost all carry some degree of risk. It's why we discuss player's floors and ceilings. I can understand why some fans might have reservations over Trae, but the risk in selecting him is present to some degree in every pick. It's like you say, pick the players that know how to play and live with the results. Sometimes you get lucky and hit on a star, other times you just end up with a decent player. Fingers crossed this year we get that star!

Is that not a risk with any prospect? Let's take Isaac as an example. The kid has a ton of upside and has excellent measurements, but at the same time he's raw, thin, and no one is really sure where he will end up playing (SF, PF or C). On the one hand teams love prospects like this because if they develop they can be all stars, but on the other they carry a lot of risk because if they don't develop they tend to be defensive starters or rotation players. Unless someone like LeBron or KD come along, there is always some element of risk to any pick.

AG has the potential to fetch a good haul, however if players like Paul George only fetch Oladipo and Sabonis, and Jimmy Butler (plus the 16th pick) only fetch Zach Lavine, Kris Dunn and the 7th overall pick - then maybe it might be time to be prepared for us receiving less than that desired top five pick and goody bag. Those two guys were multiple time all stars in the peak of their careers. They are also franchise changing players. As much as I like Gordon, he is not at their level. He is still young and improving but he might never reach their level and teams will trade accordingly. Plus, any team acquiring him would have little choice but to extend him at market value and would need to be convinced of his ability to be a franchise changing player, and if we aren't convinced of that, I doubt other teams are going to pay over the odds. I would tend to agree that we need to upgrade the PG position and that was partly my point, in that no one should be deemed immovable because of how poor this team has been. At this point in time every option should be on the table in order for this team to get on the right track. But part of that decision making process will be deciding what to do with Payton and Gordon. Do we extend them, trade them before the deadline, or sign-and-trade them in the off season? At this point I don't know which route we'll follow. None of us do. However, I would like to think our new front office are willing to do whatever it takes to make this team better and get us back on the right track. And for us to do that I honestly believe that no one should be immovable.

The most likely candidates for such a trade would be Sacramento, but this is working on the basis that they are in fact dysfunctional and easy to fleece. If that's the case we could land a top five pick for Gordon. I suppose having a Fox and Gordon duo could excite them. But I think even the Kings would be hesitant at doing such a deal. After that we'd be looking at a team like Charlotte wanting to get an ascending player for their draft pick, or perhaps a team like the Jazz, Clippers, Knicks or Trail Blazers that want someone like Gordon. But those picks are starting to head into the middle of the first round.

Gordon has shown a lot of growth over his three and a half seasons with us. This season he is posting career highs in 3P%, FT%, DRB, TRB, AST, STL, BLK, and PTS. But has he shown significantly more than Tobias Harris or Victor Oladipo did the season before they were traded? In 2014-15, Harris had a career year with a pretty good stat line across the board. I think a lot of Magic fans saw him as a part of our future. Granted we all probably grumbled at one time about his defense and lack of consistency, but I think a lot of fans felt he was probably a piece of the puzzle. Though I suppose drafting Aaron Gordon potentially meant Harris was likely to be the odd man out and traded at some point. In 2015-16, Oladipo continued to be a streaky player but he showed signs of improvement in his shooting and general efficiency. Again I would say a lot of our fans saw Oladipo as part of our future going forwards. Obviously we had to make a decision on what to do with Fournier and whether he could be a long term fit at SF with Oladipo at SG, but personally I felt those two guys could co-exist. I suppose the addition of Hezonja potentially made Oladipo expendable, like Gordon did for Harris. So in back to back seasons our former GM decided to trade away two young ascending players for what he deemed to be good packages. For some reason our front office felt moving Tobias Harris for Brandon Jennings (he was returning from a ruptured Achilles) and Ersan Ilyasova was a good idea - that trade never worked out. They then decide to send Victor Oladipo PLUS Ersan Ilyasova AND Domantas Sabonis who we picked 11th in the draft for Serge Ibaka on draft night. Fair enough Ibaka potentially solved our need for a rim protector, however that side of his game was declining before coming here and so were other areas of his game. The sad thing here is that Tobias Harris, Victor Oladipo and Domantas Sabonis have all ended up doing better elsewhere: Harris is playing his best and most efficient basketball with Detroit, Oladipo is playing like the star we drafted him to be with the Pacers, and Sabonis has shown his ability with the Pacers as well. Meanwhile the players we acquired are no longer here, nor did they have the desired impact. At the end of the day we might think that Gordon is immovable, but when you consider we still have one of the worst win-loss records in the league and don't appear close to becoming a contender, I would say that no one is immovable on this roster. We also have a new front office that needs to decide whether to pay Gordon the going rate or let him go and the same decision needs to be made about Elfrid Payton as well. On the one hand both players have shown positive signs this season, on the other we are still losing and need to reshape this roster. So what I am saying here is that if we traded away Tobias Harris (23 years old) and Victor Oladipo (23 years old), both players that were seen as part of our future, then I would not put it past our team deciding to trade Aaron Gordon if they felt it was the best way to improve this team. Like I said, our new front office need to decide whether to pay Gordon and Payton, and the last thing this team needs to do is tie itself to more bad contracts paid to players that aren't capable of taking us to the next level. If our new front office feel we can get better without them, they will move them.

Agreed, changes are needed. However, let's hope our luck changes with our next top five pick and we can finally land a centrepiece for this team to build around and have long term success with because if they are the same calibre as our current crop they might not make much of a difference.

I'm happy for him because i liked Oladipo, however it is frustrating to see him breaking out as a potential all star in Indiana when he never really showed that with us (or at least as consistently as he is now). It makes me wonder why he's been able to break out and be consistent in Indiana when he didn't really do it with us. Did we set him up to fail and they featuring him in a way we didn't? Has he just been slow to put everything together and we lacked patience and commitment? His breakout is one reason why I'd be hesitant to move the likes of Gordon, Payton, Hezonja and co. Knowing our recent luck they'd breakout elsewhere!

Agreed, but they did have one of the longest winning streaks in the NBA heading into that game. They were also playing decent enough basketball. When you consider how our team can struggle to score and defend at times, I don't think it is by any means surprising that we lost that game. Should we have lost as badly as we did? Or been that far behind? No, but an argument can be made that they are in a better position than we are and they have started to put things together. They've got young talent and they are improving at both ends of the court. As for us, we've got injury problems and lacklustre play at both ends so that didn't help our cause. For me, it's games like this that make it hard to be a Magic fan at the minute and to make the effort to watch them. How many years have we been rebuilding now? I've lost count and we are still not close to being a play off team and/or contender again, and arguably we'll have a longer wait if/when they blow this team up. I think we can say the same about a few other players as well, that if they go elsewhere they might flourish. Oladipo is a prime example since ending up in Indiana. He's looking like the player we wanted him to be when we drafted him, yet with us he never became anything more than a streaky good player. The issue we have right now is that we aren't a good team, so while there is a risk that our talent will achieve their potential elsewhere, that is a risk we'll have to take if we want to get better because this team isn't improving as hoped. The team needs rebuilding and as much as I like players like Vuc, it is arguably time to move on.

Are we doing this league again this year?

If we are trading Fournier and Vucevic then it wouldn't really matter what it does to our offensive production because we would essentially be tanking for a top pick. At that point it would be up for debate on which players are untouchable on this roster currently. I assume that Isaac would be one because we have just drafted the kid, but outside of that we could look to move other players on this roster that do not fit what we intend to build going forwards. With that said, I don't see this team tanking. As such I suspect players like Vuc and Fournier will be on this roster unless we package them to get a better player. However, I could see them being made available (as well as others) if we are struggling by the trade deadline, at that point we might end up trading players to get draft assets.

Glad to see we have signed Simmons over Shabazz. He's a really good addition. He's capable of playing SG and SF, and will either come off the bench or start for us. Ideally I'd throw him in at starting SF and bring Ross and Isaac off the bench.

True, but it depends on who they can get. Could they have got Jimmy Butler? Yes, and he's got enough left on his contract and doesn't seem set on moving elsewhere when that deal ends. Minnesota had to give up Dunn, Lavine, and their pick in exchange for Butler and the Bulls pick - a decent deal and the Celtics probably could have matched it. How about Paul George? Again they probably could have done a deal but it's a one year rental unless he's not set on LA. If they add him alone it might be enough to push the Cavs but not enough to beat the Warriors. If he bolts then they lose potential assets like Tatum. So trade wise the big two names could have been added and given them a chance, but even Butler and PG combined with what they've already got probably wouldn't beat the Warriors. So while you do have to try and win now, I do think it's sensible to have one eye on the future and not give up too much because those young players can surpass their existing veterans if given the chance. Plus, it also allows them to consider whether they give big extensions to those veterans. Granted they have probably missed opportunities in the trade market, but at the same time it's always difficult because as much as those young players might not work out, those trades might not deliver championships they desire. It comes down to whether they feel they have a greater chance to win right now, or whether they want to compete right now and add assets to help them win in the near future. It's a tough because the heart might say compete now, but the head will most likely say be patient.

It makes me wonder whether Ainge is playing the long game here. He probably realises that the chance of winning a title while the Warriors are in their prime is limited, and the chance of getting past the Cavaliers with Lebron will be pretty difficult. So what if he's keeping those assets so he can build a team around a young core of highly touted talent from the college game that he brings into a winning team? For instance last year they added Jaylen Brown and Jayson Tatum this year. That's two highly rated prospects that could have a big future in Boston. Next year they'll get Brooklyn's first round pick which could again net them another top talent, and they might also get LA's pick. And the year after that they might net three more first round picks. Essentially they've got a lot of assets they can use to add to their current crop of veterans to help them be competitive, and if those young talents break out and become stars, by that time the Warriors core will be into their 30s while Boston's core will be in their early prime years. I could be wrong, but it strikes me that Ainge has one eye on now, and the other on the future. That could be why he's still stockpiling assets because he's thinking as much about five years from now when the title contention might be more favourable than right now. And as long as the Celtics are winning and are one of the top teams in the east, and continue to accrue more talent, he's going to be secure in his job and so will Brad Stevens.

Our former player, JJ Redick, has joined the 76ers! Somewhat jealous of the 76ers and their rebuild that's led to a projected lineup of Fultz, Redick, Simmons, Saric, Embiid. It shows the difference between a team that has been lucky with where their draft picks have landed and the talent available to them. Whereas we have been somewhat unlucky in holding high draft picks in weak years (e.g. taking Oladipo second overall) and in stronger years miss out on a star talent because our pick has fallen a spot or been a spot out of getting a better player.

So we would have $39 million tied to Augustin, Ingles and Biyombo. Add to that the $29 million tied to Fournier and Vucevic. That's $68 million before Payton and Gordon get paid. If we pay them, we are going to be right at the cap without a single star (unless someone breaks out) and with no room to make any changes. Like you say, we have to wait 4 years and trust the process, which based on how things have gone since Howard it would be difficult to do. We could even put ourselves in a situation where we are not bad enough to land a top pick, but not good enough to make the play offs. That would set us back a long time unless we got lucky with a star player outside the top picks. I'll be honest, I wouldn't be paying guys like Biyombo or Ingles when the team is still trying to work out which young players have a future with us and what role they will play. I'd be trying to stockpile assets and young players, maybe even take the odd salary dump, rather than overpay free agents that won't really boost us and make us a play off team.

Perhaps Ainge didn't want to take on a one year rental, but if all it took was Oladipo and Sabonis to land a star, surely the Celtics could have put a similar or better package together to get a star that could help them compete with the Cavs? Beat the Cavs and gets to the finals, compete against the Warriors (if they make it to the NBA finals, they should, but you never know someone might surprise us) and perhaps he re-signs with the Celtics as a perennial contender rather than head to LA and a loaded western conference where the Lakers might not be a perennial contender.

If the $60 million Ingles rumor is true then i have to question what we are trying to do. We'll have money tied to him, Biyombo and Augustin at around $39 million. That's a lot of money to have tied to average players that aren't on their own going to make us a play off team or contender. I suppose Ingles offers us a solid starter at SF and will allow us to be patient with Isaac, but still I'm not sure I'd be happy with $60 million over four years. Granted if we intend to rebuild through the draft then in a few seasons start to compete then I guess these deals will be expiring deals we can try and dump. But still bad contracts can be tough to move.

With the Porzingis trade rumors coming around again. Would anyone here be willing to give up our two first round picks this year, plus a young talent, to get him? Or would you want to see us retain our picks and hope we land a star in the draft?