2016 Off-Season Thread

[ufballer1986 12]

Fixed for factual accuracy.

 

Still, he ups that another 3-5% and he is a reliable shooter which will open up a lot of things for him, including MIP opportunities

[Justin Jaudon 221]

Still, he ups that another 3-5% and he is a reliable shooter which will open up a lot of things for him, including MIP opportunities

 

I've said it before, Elfrid Payton's outside shooting is only a small portion of his problems. His shooting from just about everywhere else is terrible (he's not a horrendous finisher, though), he's careless with the basketball, he doesn't play within the offense even when he's shooting well, he can't defend the PnR, his effort and focus are inconsistent at best. All fixable things, but he's got to improve a lot more than his 3point%.

[Franchero MVP 391]

I've said it before, Elfrid Payton's outside shooting is only a small portion of his problems. His shooting from just about everywhere else is terrible (he's not a horrendous finisher, though), he's careless with the basketball, he doesn't play within the offense even when he's shooting well, he can't defend the PnR, his effort and focus are inconsistent at best. All fixable things, but he's got to improve a lot more than his 3point%.

 

It's weird because in his rookie year he looked like a tenacious defender and played with a lot of effort. His shooting just sucked.

[Justin Jaudon 221]

It's weird because in his rookie year he looked like a tenacious defender and played with a lot of effort. His shooting just sucked.

 

I never got the impression he played with a lot of effort and focus his rookie year (at least not consistently). It looked more like aimless energy a lot of times, to me (which is what a lot of rookies look like, but you want that to stop by the end of year 2). Energy doesn't equate to effort. I've compared Elfrid before to an NBA LaVar Arrington, and I'll hold to that so far. His defense was less 'tenacious' and more 'rabid'. 'Tenacious' suggests he sticks to his man tightly and fights to do so; but Elf is criminally poor at seeing and reacting to the PnR, a problem only compounded by playing with Vuc, who is too slow to react when Elf is completely blown up by a pick he seemingly either didn't see coming or thought he could FAZE through like Kitty Pride. And this hasn't changed from his rookie season.

 

Also, Payton really struggles with off-ball defensive positioning (again, something you accept in a rookie but you want figured out by year 2, especially when the guy is supposed to be a defensive positive). Elf's D often looks tenacious because he likes to body up on opposing guards like Avery Bradley. But Elf doesn't have the defensive court awareness and instincts to understand when he can and cannot do that. Which is why he is often torched by quick guards who shoot well from mid-range.

 

I call his defense rabid because it seems to be energy expended without focus on anything but attacking the ball. He gets steals, but often gambles too much because he's trying to ball-hawk like an NFL Safety. He can bother ball-handlers, but he often gets tunnel vision on the ball-handler and chases him right into a waiting pick. Like LaVar Arrington, he can be dangerous if all you need him to do is attack the ball. But he's so far been a disappointment, defensively, because defense is more complicated than that, even for a PG.

[Fultz4thewin 2,464]

I never got the impression he played with a lot of effort and focus his rookie year (at least not consistently). It looked more like aimless energy a lot of times, to me (which is what a lot of rookies look like, but you want that to stop by the end of year 2). Energy doesn't equate to effort. I've compared Elfrid before to an NBA LaVar Arrington, and I'll hold to that so far. His defense was less 'tenacious' and more 'rabid'. 'Tenacious' suggests he sticks to his man tightly and fights to do so; but Elf is criminally poor at seeing and reacting to the PnR, a problem only compounded by playing with Vuc, who is too slow to react when Elf is completely blown up by a pick he seemingly either didn't see coming or thought he could FAZE through like Kitty Pride. And this hasn't changed from his rookie season.

 

Also, Payton really struggles with off-ball defensive positioning (again, something you accept in a rookie but you want figured out by year 2, especially when the guy is supposed to be a defensive positive). Elf's D often looks tenacious because he likes to body up on opposing guards like Avery Bradley. But Elf doesn't have the defensive court awareness and instincts to understand when he can and cannot do that. Which is why he is often torched by quick guards who shoot well from mid-range.

 

I call his defense rabid because it seems to be energy expended without focus on anything but attacking the ball. He gets steals, but often gambles too much because he's trying to ball-hawk like an NFL Safety. He can bother ball-handlers, but he often gets tunnel vision on the ball-handler and chases him right into a waiting pick. Like LaVar Arrington, he can be dangerous if all you need him to do is attack the ball. But he's so far been a disappointment, defensively, because defense is more complicated than that, even for a PG.

 

 

I don't know if we can blame Payton for pick and roll issues when the entire team had those same issues.

 

It's very possible we had a bunch of guys who didn't want be physical and fight through screens but it also might be a problem with the technique.

 

Vogel said early on that we had problems with angles and need to be "put in a position to succeed" and I think pick and roll defense might be what he's referring to.

[Justin Jaudon 221]

I don't know if we can blame Payton for pick and roll issues when the entire team had those same issues.

 

It's very possible we had a bunch of guys who didn't want be physical and fight through screens but it also might be a problem with the technique.

 

Vogel said early on that we had problems with angles and need to be "put in a position to succeed" and I think pick and roll defense might be what he's referring to.

 

It was a problem for sure, but not for Oladipo, the only legitimate perimeter defender older than 20 on the team. Dipo did have some angles issues early in the season, but those were mostly gone by midseason. Occasionally he'd be out of position off the ball, too, which was a team-wide issue most of the season. I think that's more likely what Vogel was referring to, but that's speculation. I can totally see Payton figuring out his PnR issues so long as he trusts and listens to Vogel, neither of which he seemed to do for Skiles.

[Air Gordon 156]

I can totally see Payton figuring out his PnR issues so long as he trusts and listens to Vogel, neither of which he seemed to do for Skiles.

I'm confident in this because Vogel is much much more of a player's coach than Skiles, especially to the young fellas

[Justin Jaudon 221]

I'm confident in this because Vogel is much much more of a player's coach than Skiles, especially to the young fellas

 

What young PGs (other than Paul George, who's only a PG in acronym) has Vogel coached to give you that impression? I agree Vogel is more likeable to players than Skiles. He's probably a better coach overall. But what makes you assume he's a better teacher? Skiles, however unlikable he is, had success teaching other young PGs. I'm hopeful, myself, but confident is not a word I'm willing to use yet with Payton involved.

[Mauro Pedrosa 1,031]

Everyone strapped in for Diaz vs McGregor 2?

[Air Gordon 156]

What young PGs (other than Paul George, who's only a PG in acronym) has Vogel coached to give you that impression? I agree Vogel is more likeable to players than Skiles. He's probably a better coach overall. But what makes you assume he's a better teacher? Skiles, however unlikable he is, had success teaching other young PGs. I'm hopeful, myself, but confident is not a word I'm willing to use yet with Payton involved.

 

Skiles has a reputation of being impatient with young players and it's been pretty widely reported that he gave up on the team here about half way through the season. Something really didn't mesh with he and Elfrid from the get go. Now, Elfrid doesn't come out blame free here, but I am pretty confident that a lot of his struggles last year had to do with the coach. If you want to put the whole careers together of Skiles and Vogel as teachers and compare them then you're not taking in to account that Skiles wasn't invested in this Magic team last year and wanted out mid-season.

 

Look... You've been extremely outspoken about your feelings on Elfrid. We get it, and you may be right. We'll find out this season, but I'm sure as hell not gonna write him off in August. We all know he was bad last year, nobody is denying that, but he had a bunch of glimpses of something special in his rookie year and as a fan I'm really pulling for the kid to piece it together.

[Fultz4thewin 2,464]

Skiles has a reputation of being impatient with young players and it's been pretty widely reported that he gave up on the team here about half way through the season. Something really didn't mesh with he and Elfrid from the get go. Now, Elfrid doesn't come out blame free here, but I am pretty confident that a lot of his struggles last year had to do with the coach. If you want to put the whole careers together of Skiles and Vogel as teachers and compare them then you're not taking in to account that Skiles wasn't invested in this Magic team last year and wanted out mid-season.

 

Look... You've been extremely outspoken about your feelings on Elfrid. We get it, and you may be right. We'll find out this season, but I'm sure as hell not gonna write him off in August. We all know he was bad last year, nobody is denying that, but he had a bunch of glimpses of something special in his rookie year and as a fan I'm really pulling for the kid to piece it together.

 

Payton is interesting to talk about because he's very atypical for a basketball player. Sometimes I think he might be too smart. Which is why you see him suck in exhibitions. It's not like he's not competitive because he is. But he looks at those games rationally and they mean nothing so why try.

 

I don't think he had fun playing for Skiles and I think his performance suffered for it. He played just good enough not to lose his position.

 

 

Who knows what that means for his career. That personality might hold him back a lot. I don't think he's ever going to be great. In fact, I bet his entire career here we're all going to have arguments about if we should find an upgrade. I do think there's a solid chance he's going to be good enough. And good enough is fine. Good enough we can work with. Good enough we can win with.

[Air Gordon 156]

Payton is interesting to talk about because he's very atypical for a basketball player. Sometimes I think he might be too smart. Which is why you see him suck in exhibitions. It's not like he's not competitive because he is. But he looks at those games rationally and they mean nothing so why try.

 

I don't think he had fun playing for Skiles and I think his performance suffered for it. He played just good enough not to lose his position.

 

 

Who knows what that means for his career. That personality might hold him back a lot. I don't think he's ever going to be great. In fact, I bet his entire career here we're all going to have arguments about if we should find an upgrade. I do think there's a solid chance he's going to be good enough. And good enough is fine. Good enough we can work with. Good enough we can win with.

Right. He'll never be your best player, but he doesn't need to be... More importantly right now, can Deondre Francois take us to the promised land?