SmackDaddy 30 Report post Posted March 16, 2009 quote: Originally posted by KillingInTheNameOf:For Clarification: +.242 Team +.120 Redick +.380 Lee +.411 Pietrus IMO, that means that JJ is in fact doing better the last 5-6 games in comparison to himself (meaning he has improved his production), but compared to Lee & Pietrus, JJ is still sub par. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
no_ma'am 0 Report post Posted March 16, 2009 wait...you mean JJ is our 3rd best sg!? I can't believe it...who would have thought. great research kitno. very thorough Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nclover 0 Report post Posted March 19, 2009 lee (-3 )................Redick (+19) What!? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PNuT1423 0 Report post Posted March 19, 2009 quote: Originally posted by nclover:lee (-3 )................Redick (+19) What!? lol i'm sure stan has to move jj up in the lineup after one game against the bucks. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ma 6 Report post Posted March 19, 2009 Good research, but a couple of comments why I don't trust the statistics much (not that I am a JJ fan, for anyone): 1- Only certain aspects are included. The game has many many dimensions that you can't really put a quantitative measure on. 2- JJ most often plays in with a team of 4 scrubs + Hedo/Rashard. If you look at the team efficiency in that scenario, you don't really know who is the weaker link in the team. And also you don't know who is the stronger link. Usually Rashard and sometimes Hedo end up taking many shots when they are in with the scrubs. 3- Lee has the benefit of playing with Dwight which is a big attention in the middle, and frees up Lee quite a bit. JJ is always guarded very closely when he is playing with the scrubs since Gortat is never double teamed (or noticed much to say). quote: Originally posted by KillingInTheNameOf: quote: Originally posted by SmackDaddy: quote: Originally posted by ball junkie:SmackDaddy, make sure you read this thread... Yeah, you and I were talking about this specifically the other day before my cell died. JJ's PER, Lenovo, Roland Rating, Win Share, etc, etc, etc, are darn near the worst on the team (at any position) - I think only Lue and Foyle have worse rankings. And compared to Lee and Pietrus, JJ is miles behind. However, over the last 5-6 games where JJ has been utilized in a more consistent role, with a well determined rotation, I believe that JJ is finally benefiting himself and the team by not being jerked in and out of the lineup irregularly. JJ is playing with more confidence as a result of a more defined role, which pretty much every player at this level should, and it is definitely helping his game blossom. I'm glad that JJ is contributing and helping the team, but he's still our 3rd option at SG - even though MP has been moved to 3 temporarily(and next year, I could very easily see Stan experimenting with a Rafer/Jameer backcourt for a few minutes per game). I decided to test this theory being that it came from one of the biggest JJ detractors on the board & before anybody accuses me of leaving out the 6th game to form fit data, JJ had zero points in 9 minutes of play 6 games ago vs. NJ with a +2 Lenovo stat. I think this will provide a very accurate snap shot of the entire season and eventually go to making the broader point... JJ Average Stat Line In Last 5 Games: 21 Min 8.2 Pts 39% FG% 38% 3-PT FG% 42% 2-PT FG% 50% Eff FG% 1.6 Reb 2 Assists 0 Steals 0 Blocks +2.6 (+/-) Stat +.120 Per Min Lenovo Stat over Last 5 Games Lee Average Stat Line In Last 5 Games: 26 Min 7 Pts 36% FG% 33% 3-PT FG% 38% 2-PT FG% 41% Eff FG% 2.8 Reb .6 Assists 1 Steal .2 Blocks +9.6 +/- Stat +.380 PM Lenovo Stat Last 5 Pietrus Average Stat Line In Last 5 Games: 25 Min 10.2 Pts 46% FG% 47% 3-PT FG% 44% 2-PT FG% 64% Eff FG% 5.2 Reb 1.4 *** 1 Steal 1.2 Blocks +10.4 +/- Stat +.411 Per Min Lenovo Stat Last 5 (Fitting #) LENOVO STAT ANALYSIS/BREAKDOWN LAST 5 The team is +58 in last 5 games; that translates to an average margin of victory of 11.6 points. Which in turn translates into a per minutes Lenovo stat of +.242. This +.242 is the teams baseline over the last 5 games! For Clarification: +.242 Team +.120 Redick +.380 Lee +.411 Pietrus What exactly does that mean? In 21.35 mins per game JJ played over last 5, the team was +.339 over the 26.65 mins he wasn't on the floor, & +.120 in the 21.35 mins he was on the floor. Positive, but below the baseline! Put in laymans terms, the team improved an average of 9.04 points w/o JJ on the floor & 2.56 points with him on the floor during those last 5 games. Now that I've explained that here's how the teams breaks down w/Pietrus & Lee on the floor in last 5 games. +.242 Team +.411 Pietrus +.053 Team w/o Pietrus on floor Note: Average Margin of victory while Pietrus on floor 10.40 points out of the average 11.6 margin of victory. +.242 Team +.380 Lee +.121 Team w/o Lee on floor Note: AMV with Lee 8.85 out of 11.6. Ok, Ok, I can hear you now. Pietrus started two of those games & had a monster game vs. Washington...NO FAIR. Let's just look at the 3 games both players came off the bench against 3 quality opponents (Detroit, Utah, & Boston). +.174 Team (Baseline) +.122 Redick +.308 Pietrus +.124 Lee +.218 Team w/o Redick +.101 Team w/o Pietrus +.227 Team w/o Lee Translation 8.4 Average Margin of Victory 2.7 Average Gain w/JJ on floor in 22 Min 5.3 Average Gain w/Pietrus on floor in 17 Min 3.0 Average Gain w/Lee on floor in 24 Min Stat Line in those 3 Games: JJ 22 Min 6 Pts 19% FG% Lee 24 Min 7 Pts 40% FG% Pietrus 17 Min 5.3 Pts 44% FG% Conclusion: When all 3 players steal minutes from each, none of them are overly effective. But, who is the team consistently most effective with? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
futuremg 0 Report post Posted March 19, 2009 The stats dont really reflect a players abilities or talents. I have seen a player have a great scoring night and have a horrible rating. What really counts, is who gets the job done. And so far it has been a great team effort with everyone contributing, everyone being a starat one time or another including JJ. So lets root for the team and stop the jj bashing. Its starting to sound a bit racist Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KillingInTheNameOf 63 Report post Posted March 19, 2009 quote: Originally posted by ma:1- Only certain aspects are included. The game has many many dimensions that you can't really put a quantitative measure on. Such as? I'm not suggesting what has been provided does, but that doesn't mean it can't be done. quote: 2- JJ most often plays in with a team of 4 scrubs + Hedo/Rashard. If you look at the team efficiency in that scenario, you don't really know who is the weaker link in the team. And also you don't know who is the stronger link. Usually Rashard and sometimes Hedo end up taking many shots when they are in with the scrubs. All 3 players have large data sample as backups and when you isolate those games it tells a similiar story. quote: The stats dont really reflect a players abilities or talents. I have seen a player have a great scoring night and have a horrible rating. What really counts, is who gets the job done. And so far it has been a great team effort with everyone contributing, everyone being a starat one time or another including JJ. So lets root for the team and stop the jj bashing. Its starting to sound a bit racist Racist? Pretty funny, I'm clearly advocating Gortat over Battie as well. I guess that makes me a schitzo racist? As you said, "what really counts, is who gets the job done", and that precisely what this stat reflects. I've said all year long JJ has played well, improved dramatically, but the bottom line is that the team is far more effective with Pietrus & Lee playing instead of JJ. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nclover 0 Report post Posted March 22, 2009 Lee.+3....Redick....+11 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
futuremg 0 Report post Posted March 22, 2009 Dont forget Pietrus's -17. Stats? Yes they are always accurate. Lol! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SmackDaddy 30 Report post Posted March 22, 2009 quote: Originally posted by nclover:Lee.+3....Redick....+11 quote: Originally posted by futuremg:Dont forget Pietrus's -17. Stats? Yes they are always accurate. Lol! Wouldn't it be nice if players could select a handful of games to represent their season output rather than all 82? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Captain Hi-Top 791 Report post Posted March 22, 2009 quote: Originally posted by futuremg:Dont forget Pietrus's -17. Stats? Yes they are always accurate. Lol! Yes, stats are accurate... it's not their fault you lack the ability to properly interpret them. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ma 6 Report post Posted March 22, 2009 Defense: Boxouts, help defense, rotations, etc. Offense: Off the ball movement, screens, extra passes, the quality of the passes and shots, etc. Overall: Intensity, hustle, leadership, etc. I am not saying don't look at the stats, but guys, do not worship them please. Watch the game in its whole and make your decision based on that. I personally prefer non-selfish players who play smart and get his teammates involved. quote: Originally posted by KillingInTheNameOf: quote: Originally posted by ma:1- Only certain aspects are included. The game has many many dimensions that you can't really put a quantitative measure on. Such as? I'm not suggesting what has been provided does, but that doesn't mean it can't be done. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
