VC_Fan

quote: This is a very unfair comparison. The whole point of the trade - from Thorn's POV - was to dump salary and start rebuilding. They weren't supposed to challenge for a playoff spot. Nonsense. It's a very fair comparison. Battie and Alston were non-factors. Ryan Anderson was a factor for the first little bit of the season, but the rest of the regular season and the playoffs was a non-factor. By the end of the year, it was essentially Carter for Lee. quote: As with any non-star player, his surroundings can have a huge impact on his performance. Success breeds confidence which breeds success. Aside from the previously mentioned non-factors of Anderson, Battie, and Alston, Carter had basically the same "surroundings" his last year with New Jersey as Lee had this season. Actually, Lee had what was supposed to be a solid rookie in Chris Douglas-Roberts as well.

quote: The celebration with the Celtics. You mean how he "celebrated" with the Celtics the exact same way every other Magic player did? Gotcha.

quote: Originally posted by Debonair:this all comes down to how big of an idiot otis is...... this ****y ******* was acting so self assured that vince was the answer for winning a 'ship and vince ended up being the main reason they lost the series. now he knows there's no way in hell of getting rid of vince this summer and he's pretty much stuck in a magic jersey until the trade deadline. and then what? you trade him out for another superstar? probably not gonna happen. and whoever they bring in is supposed to gel with the team and form chemistry 2 1/2 months before the play offs? thank you otis smith Yeah, you're right. Vince, not Rashard Lewis, the $20 million man, was the man reason they lost the series. Check the series stats idiot. Then get back to me. Vince was far from the worst player. There was a guy making $4 million more per year who played 10 times worse.

quote: Just got back from a business trip to this? Care to repeat that in English? quote: Mr. Sensitive, my post had little to do with Carter. You calling me Mr. Sensitive. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black, lol. quote: SINCE IT WAS NOT ANYWHERE NEAR THE POINT OF MY POST, I MAY HAVE MISTATED HIS GREATNESS AND FOR THAT, I AM PROFOUNDLY SORRY. I am profoundly sorry? Is that what your mother thinks about her decision not to abort you?

The Nets won 34 games in 08-09 with Vince, and 12 games in 09-10 with Lee. Obviously that isn't ALL because of those two guys, there were other factors (like injuries to Devin Harris), but the VC for Lee swap is a major factor.

quote: Originally posted by ButterMilkPancakes: quote: Originally posted by VC_Fan: quote: Originally posted by EnFuego: quote: Originally posted by ThisIsTheYear: quote: Originally posted by dreamingincolors:I can't believe we had a talented young prospect SG and we let him go. Interestingly enough we also have another talented young backup SG and I hope we don't make the same mistake twice. Why can't we bring Courtney Lee back? Courtney was a solid, young player, but nothing more. Some people here value our players as if they're the second coming of players they could never dream of becoming. When you have the opportunity to trade less-than-critical player for an established 20/5/5 allstar, you do it, and you don't think twice about it. In retrospect, it didn't work out with us to the extent that we wish it could have, but you'd have to be foolish to believe that it was a bad move back in July. Absolutely. The Magic lost to a very talented team so now every move made was a mistake. I liked Courtney, but please let's not get carried away here. When Otis decided to pass on Hedo, he felt he needed to make a deal for the best closer available for a trade and did well in bringing Vince. He wasn't going to get anyone better and the storyline made sense. A veteran former superstar with a chance to redeem a poor playoff career going back to his home area. He knew Courtney wasn't going to be the closer and nothing he did in New Jersey proved otherwise. So Vince stunk it up in the playoffs. I still give Otis credit for not doing the easy thing which would have been to keep the team together and give Hedo what he wanted. Coming into this season Carter had career playoff averages of 25.9 PPG, 6.9 RPG, and 5.2 APG. He had never lost a playoff series with HCA, and had twice won series without HCA. Now please explain how he had (prior to this season) a "poor playoff career". I'm genuinely interested to hear your argument. Probably his terrible shooting numbers. You can't win being that inefficient. Only you're lying. His shooting numbers weren't "terrible". He had a career playoff TS% of 51.6% prior to this season. That is only slightly below average. It is not "terrible". And even if they were "terrible", there are a hell of a lot more stats than shooting percentage. He more than made up for his percentages with his overall production (PPG, RPG, APG, SPG, BPG). Shooting percentage is not the be-all and end-all.

quote: Originally posted by EnFuego: quote: Originally posted by ThisIsTheYear: quote: Originally posted by dreamingincolors:I can't believe we had a talented young prospect SG and we let him go. Interestingly enough we also have another talented young backup SG and I hope we don't make the same mistake twice. Why can't we bring Courtney Lee back? Courtney was a solid, young player, but nothing more. Some people here value our players as if they're the second coming of players they could never dream of becoming. When you have the opportunity to trade less-than-critical player for an established 20/5/5 allstar, you do it, and you don't think twice about it. In retrospect, it didn't work out with us to the extent that we wish it could have, but you'd have to be foolish to believe that it was a bad move back in July. Absolutely. The Magic lost to a very talented team so now every move made was a mistake. I liked Courtney, but please let's not get carried away here. When Otis decided to pass on Hedo, he felt he needed to make a deal for the best closer available for a trade and did well in bringing Vince. He wasn't going to get anyone better and the storyline made sense. A veteran former superstar with a chance to redeem a poor playoff career going back to his home area. He knew Courtney wasn't going to be the closer and nothing he did in New Jersey proved otherwise. So Vince stunk it up in the playoffs. I still give Otis credit for not doing the easy thing which would have been to keep the team together and give Hedo what he wanted. Coming into this season Carter had career playoff averages of 25.9 PPG, 6.9 RPG, and 5.2 APG. He had never lost a playoff series with HCA, and had twice won series without HCA. Now please explain how he had (prior to this season) a "poor playoff career". I'm genuinely interested to hear your argument.

quote: Originally posted by TreyTime:New Jersey has a young guard named Courtney Lee. Great defender, and he can shoot the three well. Maybe Otis can find a way to get this guy, I think he would be a good fit with the Magic. For all the fans of Photoshop: What you meant to say is that New Jersey has a young guard named Courtney Lee, who replaced Carter with the Nets, which saw them go from 34 wins to 12 wins.

>>Fair enough..Just usually see most players playing into their early thirties<< Again though, that's NOT "most players". That's the guys you remember. You forget about all the guys who just aren't good enough to stay in the league. The guys who maybe play 40-50 games over a 2 year period on D-League call-ups, and are never heard from again. The guys who can't hack it even though they were a top 10 first-round pick, and and up out of the league after three seasons (like Haffa Araujo, #8 overall pick by the Raptors in 2004), and playing in Europe or South America. >>Paul Pierce is still the go-to guy<< But you can't deny the reason he is still so efficient is because of the questionable calls he gets. Why do you think he averages so many free throws? It's not because he's athletic, or even aggressive driving the ball. It's because of those often questionable calls he gets on pump fakes and jumping into defenders. Surely you saw that this series.

>>..There's no way that's true at all...Can I see a stat on that please?<< "Of the 329 NBA players included in this study, 133 were listed as guards, 142 were forwards, and 54 were centers. The average length of their NBA careers was 4.81 seasons (SD = 3.69). " http://www.thesportjournal.org...ers-career-longevity That's a sample size of 329 players. I think I'd call that statistically significant. >>Most guys play well into their thirties..barring injuries.<< No they don't. The players people remember for years to come may play well into their 30s, but that's the REASON people remember them for years to come. There are countless players whose careers only last 2-3 years. >>I don't think you know what you're talking about.<< I don't care what you think. I stated the facts and gave a link to a large-scale study. If you have a better source saying that "most" (more than 50%) player play "well into their 30s" do share. Edit: here's another source saying 4.82 years 4.82 Length in seasons of the average NBA career http://www.time.com/time/magaz...oglep)#ixzz0pTFvL8Id

If you expected him to be "the man" you are just ignorant. Vince Carter is 33 years old. The average NBA career is 4.8 years. Do the math....that means the average player is retired well before the age of 30. Vince "drives to the hoop" and "attacks the basket" probably more than any other 33+ year old in the entire league. Pierce may get more free throw attempts, but that's not because he drives to the hoop, it's because the referees give him BS calls where he jumps into the defender, initiating contact. Those should be no-calls or even offensive fouls. But for some reason they like Pierce (or maybe he has dirt on them and they're afraid to call it like they see it).

quote: Originally posted by The Can Opener: quote: Originally posted by VC_Fan: quote: Originally posted by SOWHATDETROIT:Our team would have been ok keeping courtney lee and Rafer alston. The Hedo situation made things extremely complicated but Otis did what he could to put a good team out there but vice just doesnt know how to create shots for his teammates. Ball movement was non existent in that series To a certain extent that's true, but it is not the responsibility of the SG to create shots for his teammates. That is the PGs responsiblity. Jameer Nelson prefers to dribble the ball around for 15-18 seconds before jacking up a shot himself. You do know it is possible to defend your boy without taking shots at one of the cornerstones of this franchise right? Jameer Nelson is a talented player, but he is not a good PG. He is more suited for SG. How often does he dribble dribble dribble the whole shot clock, and then jack up a shot himself without a single pass. I don't know if it's because he doesn't trust his teammates, he doesn't trust his passing ability, or what it is.

quote: Originally posted by SOWHATDETROIT:Our team would have been ok keeping courtney lee and Rafer alston. The Hedo situation made things extremely complicated but Otis did what he could to put a good team out there but vice just doesnt know how to create shots for his teammates. Ball movement was non existent in that series To a certain extent that's true, but it is not the responsibility of the SG to create shots for his teammates. That is the PGs responsiblity. Jameer Nelson prefers to dribble the ball around for 15-18 seconds before jacking up a shot himself.

quote: Originally posted by Its just zo:There are bigger things in life than basketball. Vince genuinely is a great person and would be in the hall of fame if they had one for niceness and caring. I, was one of the people who always gave Vince the benefit of the doubt after bad games or stretches. I always thought he would come up big when it counted in the playoffs, in which he never did. There has been so much hate towards Vince after the Magic were eliminated. Could you put yourself in his shoes? Everyone hates you, they say you dont have heart (even though thats his biggest attribute off the court). Vince was a big failure on the court but hes always been a legend off of it. I feel sorry for Vince because he will go down now as the ultimate loser. It was just never meant to be. Vince has millions of dollars and a great personal life. I doubt he reads forums, and I doubt he cares what a bunch of losers who've accomplished nothing in their lives making $50,000 a year typing from their basements think of him.

quote: Originally posted by Mat