Sabian Jackson

I'm not referring to him blocking it and catching it all by himself, but as I said, slapping away out of bounds doesn't serve a measurable or guaranteed result. There are times when he has blocked it so easily, I just wonder to myself why he bothers giving it right back to the other team when realistically, he probably could catch them. This also becomes pointless if the shot itself is really bad, and probably wasn't going in anyway. I also said its no reason why it should count against him in the MVP race, so I'm not really sure why I'm getting negative rep when I'm just making an observation. An observation that serves as more praise than anything, because I believe he can do more regularly than he has done.

Because there is no guarantee this happens. Blocking it and gaining possession has a clear and obvious result, blocking it and giving it back to the other team has a perceived result.

I'm not sure that's really an indicator. Obvious contending teams have lost to teams they should never lose to. Boston have lost to the Nets and Wizards and Cavs, Miami have lost to the Cavs and are terrible against teams over .500, and the Bulls have lost to the Nets and Raptors. The fact that we continue to compete in pretty much every game has been obvious, particularly in the games such as the Miami comeback. Hell, I even went to bed at half-time because I didn't believe we'd win that one. The problem with comparing last seasons team to this season is that the whole league has a different look. We also made 1 (real) change last year, whereas this year half our roster is different. Different opponents, different outcomes. We are probably not worse than last year, we are just different. I will say however, that I have much more confidence in the team this year, simply because we have a vastly offensively improved Dwight. We have heard the excuse "that guy shot great all game long but it won't do it consistency" a few times, but just because we've heard it a lot, doesn't make it no longer valid. Do you really think players like 'Melo will consistently hit off balance, contested jumpers for a whole game consistently? Ultimately, it comes down to this: The regular season means nothing as long as you reach the playoffs. That part is done. Who knows what will happen when they start?

Its no reason to not give him the MVP, but to be fair, if he can do it then he should try every game to gain possession from the block. Swatting into the stands does nothing other than gives them the ball back. Yeah the ball didn't hit the rim or get close, but its not entirely necessary to smash it away.

So firstly, you prove my point that you take things to absolutes. Good work. I also didn't actually say you were wrong if you argue that Miller could be MVP, I just questioned why anyone would, since that is a completely different scenario to the Rose one. Things that are "open to interpretation", are things such as Wade is not a good defender etc. Or perhaps you should provide reasons why he is not rather than simply stating it? Oh wait, no, you haven't done that either, you just state he isn't because you said so. Pot calling the kettle black perhaps? So what part of the "he has the same numbers as last year" do you not understand? That is some sort of justification of why Deng isn't a factor. Perhaps you should justify why he is? Or why Boozer is a factor? Yet you haven't. Another situation where you have made points equally the way I have. I was also using your viewpoint of stats proving something and using it against you. Or is it not OK for people to take your logic and use it against you? And those sentences do not contradict each other. Just because someone enjoys a discussion or contrary views, doesn't mean they care whether the views are contrary or not. I have many friends who have similar views and many who have different views. This doesn't mean I enjoy either opinion any more than the other. Perhaps I just enjoy the discussion itself, rather than the notion of a "right view" or a "wrong view". And funny how you conclude with pretty much the epitome of yourself. "Yes, Teegeeackian. You're e-penis is huge, and you're clearly better than Xenu. You sure showed Xen". This is also strange considering your tag line a little while ago was quoting someone saying about how you "destroy members of the forum." The very fact that you liked to draw attention to this yourself means that you clearly love the attention. Or that you keep this Xenu front up because you love calling people pitiful or pathetic and are able to get away with it because it's an "act". It's just sad really.

Firstly, you seemed to be under the impression that what we decide or conclude or discuss on this board has any relevance to the outside world, or the outcome of events which will follow. Whether I back up my opinion or not is basically irrelevant. The difference between this discussion and the justice system, (another of your ridiculous comparisons) is that in the justice system people have to reach a conclusion and a decision. There is also the fact that in the justice system is actually important, whereas our basketball discussion is not, nor could you really make any reasonable argument to suggest it is. And yes, we are quite capable of having a discussion based on some evidence, whether it little or large, if we feel like it. Yet more of your ridiculous examples arise in your bringing up Mike Miller. There is a big difference between arguing whether a bench player on a team with 3 superstars on it is the MVP, and the undeniable best player on a team with the second/third best record in the league. Stop making such ridiculous comparisons, because that makes you look foolish, and makes you guilty of supposedly what you are accusing me of. Just because you "could" argue Mike Miller is the MVP, doesn't mean anyone in the entire world would take you seriously. Even Mike Miller. This is essentially a pointless point by you. It does not prove anything nor does it back up your position at all. When I refer to "my opinion", i'm referring to my opinion on things that are open to interpretation. If I think that Rose playing better this year and being a leader is more important than the arguments you outline, then I have reached that conclusion through my interpretation. For example, the Bulls were still winning without Boozer (your 20/10 guy) or Deng play well, even though he is not massively better than last year statistically. We have actually already covered these reasons in this discussion, and I have made these points. If you couldn't be bothered to go look for them, it is not my duty to have to list them again. In fact, for most of my points, I have given reasons in one way or another, throughout this whole discussion. Go find them, and you'll see some of my reasoning. If you don't, I'm under no obligation to do anything other than reiterate my main point briefly. On a side note though, an opinion equal to a large proportion of other peoples viewpoints, i.e. Rose being MVP doesn't make me look ridiculous, it makes me look like I agree with a lot of other people with the same opinion. Granted you may or may not agree, but I'm sure there are people who are far informed in the basketball world than you or I, with a similar opinion to me, as I'm sure there are with an opposing view to mine. Don't act like I'm being stupid for think he is the MVP when he is most definitely in the discussion. You are correct in saying you could argue that a member of the Spurs is more valuable. Who are you going to choose? Who is more important? Manu, Duncan or Parker, and why are any of them more valuable than Rose is to his team? (Just FYI, this is how you engage in a discussion with someone.) I also am not acting like you're picking on me or any other poster, I simply thing you have a poor way or dealing with discussions such as this. Again, I see no reason why I have to provide evidence to be scrutinized by judge and jury for this opinion. Also, just because I post doesn't mean I give a hoot one way or another people if people agree or disagree with me. I do it because I enjoy reading other peoples views and I enjoy taking part. You can think otherwise if you want, but since I am me, and you are not, I know why, and you do not. I also do not care one bit whether you want to accuse me of rape. I will not demand evidence nor will I bat more than an eyelid at you if you did, particularly as I will never meet you, nor will it make any difference to my life whether you say that or not. Go ahead, see if I respond the way you have. Unlike you seemingly, my reputation on an Orlando message board is not even close to being important thing in my life.

I have, on a number of times in this whole thread, acknowledged points of view, and I'm perfectly happy to engage in a discussion about them. Just because I don't care whether someone thinks I'm wrong or not, doesn't mean I don't want those points to be discussed. The proportion of people who disagree or agree is largely irrelevant. I also have You're assertion that the two arguments, Rose is not the MVP and that the sky is not green, are not comparable, since they are vastly different statements. A definition of a colour is a defintion and is not open to debate, so when something is that colour, it either is or isn't. To say that Rose not being the MVP is fact, is just plain wrong. You may think he is not, and you are entitled to that opinion. But to say something is fact when the whole point of it, is that it's an opinion based thing, is idiotic. Whether some team won a championship, or scored more points than another player/team or didn't, this is also a fact. But whether they deserve it or not, that is a debate or an opinion based discussion. If I say I think Rose is the MVP for reasons X, Y and Z, and you don't think these reasons are good enough or strong enough, it doesn't mean I am wrong, it just means you disagree. Stop dealing in absolutes when it is a discussion. There is no right or wrong here genereally, unless I say Rose scored 50 ppg when he is averaging only 25. If I say, for example, he is the main reason the Bulls are playing so well and are the number 1 seed, this is not "wrong", it is just different from what you may or may not think. This is something you seem to misunderstand. You may think there are more important things for this occurence, but that doesn't mean anything other than we interpret different things differently. I may think that the fact that he is the teams leader, which causes results which you or I have no idea about, is the main reason for their success. I do not need to justify nor quantify this. How exactly does one quantify "leadership" anyway? If you had paid attention to the whole debate you will see I have made a number of points and given reasons. Disagree with them by all means, but don't come round tell me I'm am wrong, as opposed to you just disagreeing. I'm pretty sure I haven't said anyone else is wrong because they believe Howard is the MVP, I simply said I disagree. This is the reason for the debate, not you are wrong because I state this and this in absolute terms. And to answer your statement about proving these accusations, I really cannot be bothered since I don't care at all whether you want the to be justified or not. It changes nothing, since even if I point out cases where you have, it will mean little to you, and won't make any difference. How about you just get over the fact that someone on the internet thinks this about your mannerism? Seriously. Who cares?

I think its more the fact that you basically told me that I think Wade is a good defender because I watch highlights and see his blocks/steals. I did not once say Rose deserves it because he has to contend with players like Wade on a nightly basis. I said that it is a contributing factor. Obviously this is up for debate, and I can see you disagree. I do not really care either way whether you agree or disagree to be honest, I was simply stating that I believe this is a factor which should affect an MVP choice, whereas you do not. You're problem is that you seem to think arguments have to have proof rather than a point being an interpretation of watching games. Stats are not everything, and the idea of one person being a better or worse defender is a highly debatable point. Intangibles are different to measure and quantify, and the weightings put on them differ from person to person. However, you seem to think that because you disagree, the person with that viewpoint is simply wrong. And I do accuse you of nitpicking, because you do. I could, if I wanted to waste the time, point to a number of posts where you have basically made a point based on someone saying one thing in their post which may or may not be quite right. You then spend a while critisizing them for saying that, and ultimately conclude that anything they have to say is wrong simply because they said one or two things once. There are also lots of rational reasons why Rose is an MVP. You may disagree, or you may not. Just because you disagree, doesn't mean they aren't rational.

I'm glad you know why I say these things. Makes me feel a lot better. It also means the whole forum is irrelevant because you know exactly what everyone means and says. HEY EVERYONE, ITS OK, DOMS GOT THIS. WE DON'T NEED TO SAY WHAT WE THINK ANYMORE BECAUSE HE "KNOWS".

Kobe has still proved this season he has what it takes to score at will. Obviously he isn't as good as he used to be, but I believe I pointed that out anyway. Just because Kobe isn't as good, doesn't detract from the fact that Kobe is a great scorer and a guy most teams would choose to go to if they needed a score (If they had him on their team.) For you to deny Wade is a great defender is madness, and the only reason you could argue he isn't a great defender, is if you asked him to defend centers or big forwards.

I was referring to the fact that the game went to overtime, rather than just using the overtime bit. Ah well. I would also like to know what progress we've made.

We also at least half the time had a hand in his face, forced him to take off balanced shots or to make shots he wouldn't normally make. In this case however, he made pretty much everything. Nothing you can do about that. Basically everything after half time went in for him, along with some help from certian "unbiased" men. When do you think he'll have a game like that again? Probably won't for a good few games. I know it was a frustrating loss due to many reasons, but it's only 1 loss. We're not really in any danger anymore of dropping down. Game meant next to nothing. Take the crap, deal with it, and move on.

Evidence needed? Knicks overtime game, March 28th 2011.

Melo is laughing because they got away with utter bull****.

Refs ruined a perfectly good overtime game. More evidence for the video?

Worst call in history?

The amount of terrible shots they've made is truly ridiculous. They should be out of sight.

Its half three in the morning. Have to be up at half 6 for work, but do I care? Heeeell no.

I don't know. I'd be wary of writing off the Celtics so early. They are renown for slowing down big time near the end of the regular season. Last year they looked awful at the end of the season, but warmed up considerably once the playoffs started. It may be different now due to the lack of Perkins, but you never know. On the other hand, no team in the east look unbeatable. The playoffs this year could be very unpredictable. Bad teams could beat the "better" teams, and while we look truly awful at times, I fancy more of a run from us this year.

I got one, just because we all hate who it happened to. Surprised Garnett didn't turn round and start a fight with him. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W75rDF7nHmY

Good contribution....

While I do agree that Centers of Dwights calibre (of which there is only one) are at a disadvantage, I don't necessarily think that the way the league is officiated should be an argument for or against an MVP. I do however think the level of competition in a position is a relevant. I also think that people like Rose sometimes have to contend with being defended by or defending players like Wade. We all know Wade is one of the best defenders in the league, and you just have to look at the last Lakers Heat game to realize this. Kobe is possibly one of the greatest offensive players the league has ever seen, and although he is much older, Wade had his number for about 5 minutes at the end of the game. I guess the problem with Dwights performance, is that we all expect it from him. I know its a fairly weak argument against him, but we do. We are all guilty of it on this forum, because every game we simply assume he's going to show up and perform. And because he does so regularly, it doesn't really become spectacular or unusual. Perhaps because we've waited so long for this jump in performance to occur, the fact that he's doing it becomes almost like it hasn't come soon enough. I suppose in the end, I'm taking a fairly anti-Dwight approach because he is on our team, and bias becomes a fairly big issue, so I'm almost adjusting too much. It'd be interesting to see what other forums say about who is the MVP, however.

While you are entitled to your opinion of what I am, or how interested I am in basketball, I would like to defend my position. I do pay more attention to offensive details because as a whole they are much easier to discuss, judge and quantify. As a team, the defensive ratings can be measured, but individuallly, its relatively difficult. I only focus on the offensive side, because of these reasons and because you will hear no argument from me when we compare Rose and Dwight defensively. There is an obvious clear winner so that point doesn't seem even worth discussing. While my opinion is of Rose being a better candidate, it is not wholly based on offense, though it does play a fairly large part in his case. I have mostly been referring to why Rose is the MVP, not why Dwight isn't. Therefore, I have largely overlooking him defensively when I argue his case, because theres no point referring to a point when he is clearly inferior. I also believe there are a large amount of intangibles and added parts to his game which are not seen in stats or something that can be seen as black or white. I do tend to refer alot to stats though, because they are not really that open to debate. The number is what it is. It's not perfect but its better than comparing players based on where we think they are, rather than what stats can show us what they are. I know there are lots and lots of flaws in using statistics, but sometimes this is the best we have when we refer to certain points.

No offense to you, but this is the exact stand point he takes on a regular occurence. Every single criticism he makes tends to be related to small details of a post rather than the complete post. I try and respond to the majority of the posts made against mine, whereas he does not. Perhaps he should deal with the same when he is similarly guilty of it.

I wasn't saying he deserved it because of those two games, I was simply pointing out that you were wrong to claim that he never had games without them both. Which you were. I agree I was also exaggerating slightly with the dominating part, but he is performing better than you would place him in the list of point guards. Correct me if I am wrong. My point was simply based on highlighting that the strength of the opposition holds some value rather than just raw numbers. Another point I shall make, is that if the league is weaker than it was in the 90s for Center, it is still weaker. Place any Center in the league right now in the era other than Dwight, and you will see an incredibly sub-par Center. Yet another point is that even in that era of peak centers, only 2, maybe 2.5 won the MVP award. (Shaq won it in the 99/00, which is barely the 90s). Jordan won it more times in that era than any number of Centers. Dengs numbers are also the same, if not slightly worse than last season. So your idea of a "resurgence of Luol Deng" is basically wrong. Sorry. You seem to be losing your touch of belittling people on their opinions DOM. That is a shame.