Ryan the Magic Fan
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Posts posted by Ryan the Magic Fan
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I agree. I'll ask again. Has Kyle's play made Frye expendable? I would rather have gave KoQ anchoring the PF spot. He is a better passer, rebounder, and defender already. Dare I say he's a better mid range shooter? He has definitely developed his 3pt shot. Payton4thewin are you on board now? We still need to see consistency but I think Kyle may be better for us than Frye.
Only if he continues this level of play and can learn to not foul like crazy.
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I have a small issue with this statement. Gortat is definitely not Washington's second best player.
Eh... I went back and forth between him, Beal and Nene. I chose Him due to his overall stats compared to the other two. But in reality it's a tossup IMO, and only highlights my point. This is the second best team in the east how?
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The west just keeps getting better.
I keep looking at the East Conference Standings and keep thinking how in the hell are the top two teams in any conference ones that feature Demar Derozen & Kyle Lowry and John Wall and Marcin Gortat as their two best players?
And it really hits me just how bad this conference has become.
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I'm content with the idea of Payton-Oladipo-Gordon-Harris-Vuc starting line up of the future. Was never keen on Nicholson or Harkless as long-term players (I've been arguing from the beginning with you all that Harris was much better than Harkless, though Harkless would be a terror if he could ever get coordinated enough to dribble and shoot properly).
The question is: do we think we have enough offensive fire power to beat great teams in the playoffs? Our bottom 3 are pretty poor when it comes to scoring despite their incredible athleticism. I suppose I wonder if this is enough to win a championship, even if all 5 players reach close to their ceilings.
Those ceilings are all very high though... Harris is only 22 and he is putting up close to all star numbers. Oladipo is starting to show flashes of those D-Wade comparisons with the step back jumpers and aggressive acrobatic finishes at the rim. Gordon already was showing a far more polished jumper then anyone thought he had before the injury. And while Payton's jumper is bad, it's not the train wreck anyone thought it was, and everything else is so far beyond what you would expect out of a rookie it's forgivable.
The only person who doesn't seem to have much left room to grow is Vuc, and he is already one of the better centers in the east.
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Really?.. Who would you say Vaughn has helped developed.
From what I can tell, Vaughn hasn't done any development. But then again there are no consistent rotations for guys to really show.
Mo, regressed... barely plays
Nicholson, regressed.. is he on the team?
Victor, regressed (yr 1 at PG = decent, yr 2 at PG = awful)
QOK, stayed the same no improvement
Vaughn hasn't developed a single rookie in the 2+ yrs he has been here. It doesn't bode well for Payton and Gordon.
What team are you watching? You wanna claim Harkless and Nicholson sure, but looking at the primary core of young guys this team brought in:
Harris: Went from a talented player that languished on a bench in Milwaukee, has turned into a polished shooter/slasher/rebounder with a clutch gene and putting up just under all-star numbers.
Vuc: Went from the afterthought throw in on the Dwight Howard trade to arguably the teams best player, and again putting up close to all star numbers.
Oladipo: Was a great defensive slapping person with a little bit of ball handling skills, too now a combo guard with the ability to shoot the basketball from range, something he wasn't able to do in college
O'Quinn: Has gone from a player many thought wouldn't even stay in the league past 2 years too a consistent front court contributor that may end up convincing some team out there to massively overpay for his services.
If your honestly gonna say that none of those 4 players are not better now then they were before joining the Magic under Vaughn you clearly have no idea what you are talking about.
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I love how more insane this thread looks now that Oladipo, just like several of us predicted, has his legs back under him and is starting to play better. And his jumper is starting to drop too....
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I prefer basketball players over floor spacers and decoys...maybe it's just me, idk. Will you at least concede he brings nothing to the table defensively and is a terrible rebounder?
Yes. Neither of which he was brought in for. He was brought into: One have the team meet the salary cap floor, and Two space the floor for the Magic's cutting slashers, Three be a veteran presence in the locker room. He is doing his job on two of those already, we have no idea what happens in the locker room but it looks like the Magic's young guys respect him and listen to his experience.
I assume that by the way you continue to point out his lack of defense that you want a more traditional power forward in the role? I'm guessing that means you are wanting to see Kyle O'Quinn in the starting lineup? You wouldn't be alone in this want, but tell me what then? Kyle has already proven he is unable to avoid foul trouble, and if the injury to Vuc has shown anything is that we need a good defensive big to spell him to stop teams from scoring at will in the paint.
So we pull Frye out of the starting lineup and make him the first big man into the game. Kyle will most likely pick up fouls even faster going against the opposing teams best big men instead of their back line and suddenly now you also have a team with only one legit perimeter shooter in Tobias Harris (and thats shaky). How will that offense run? It won't and we see it happen often when OQuinn and Vuch play together, often times Payton, Oladipo and Harris go into a lane that is clogged by their own players.
Also on the starting lineup Frye's defensive liabilities are somewhat mitigated by the active hands of Oladipo, Harris and (currently) Evan. This helps immensely as Harris can move to play the PF on D if the opposing teams wing isn't an elite level guy like LeBron or Melo.
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The fact that you even used Lewis as a reference baffles me. Lewis could do 10 times more than what Frye can.(Gonna try English).The whole point is all the guy does is stretch the floor WHEN he is making shots. When he is not doing that he is worthless. He can't defend and can't crash the boards and can't pass. Hell he can't even set a decent screen for the pick and roll. It is what it is.
All things stated about Rashard Lewis when he was having his bad spell of shooting during the finals run season. Hell all things said about Lewis during his entire Magic Career. Heck I can hardly ever remember Lewis getting a block here and yet I can remember Frye having at least a few blocks the last few weeks. Do you not remember the Charmin soft nickname he picked up on these boards?
Lets look at this with some numbers, this season Frye has 17 blocks less then a third of the way through. Lewis highest ever total for a season? 51. On this Track Frye will pass that. In his best rebounding season Lewis averaged 5.7. So far Frye is at 5.0.
And you also say that Frye isn't making shots. As stated he is currently 41% from the 3pt line this season. This is his second highest in his career. Which is also comparable to Lewis 41% highest magic 3pt% for a season. So you can continue to argue based off gut reaction, or you can look at numbers. And the numbers are pretty simple. Frye is a valuable asset to this team. He does exactly what Lewis did for the Magic, just not at the high volume which is the only stat that Lewis in prime form had him beat at. He is a legit floor spacer that teams need to account for, which then opens up the games of Tobes, Vuc, Vic and Payton
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Harris must be getting rebounds from all Frye's missed shots, because Frye sure doesn't have very many assists for the minutes he's playing.
Which is funny, cause he's averaging his highest APG in his career this season so far (still a low 1.5 but he is showing more willingness to pass as he did for other teams), and his second highest 3PTFG% in his career 41%.
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Wow I guess Tobias is just screwed if we get rid of Frye..my apologies we MUST keep him playing 30 plus minutes.
Frye is a stretch 4 who can't rebound, defend, or consistently shoot. I think the idea of Frye was a good one before we knew that Oladipo and Harris had expanded their games and are now both highly efficient 3pt shooters and Vuc can also spread the court with his shooting ability. I just feel the benefits of having Frye stand out beyond the arch are off-set by his inability to bring anything else to the table. Every man he guards, whether it be a starter or journey man PF, continue to light him up on pretty much a nightly basis. Would we not be better off with O'Quinn, or Gordon when he returns, who bring more to the table on the defensive end of the court? It's not all about offense, at least it doesn't have to be.
You know I seem to remember many people said the same things about Rashard Lewis during the 2008-09 season when he hit a lul and shot below 35% from the arc for the first month or two of the season.
But you know, because he is a good shooter he snapped out of it. But that's a rarity right? Great 3 point shooters almost never have spouts of bad shooting, and if they do they never shake themselves out of it right?
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Sooo.... Bosh is out for at least a little while. The Heat are starting to look like we did back earlier in the season. Take a look at the next nine games till the end of Dec.
@ Toronto
@ Boston
vs Utah
vs Philadelphia
vs Boston
vs Cleveland
@ Charlotte
@ Miami
vs Detroit
Outside of Cleveland and Toronto every single one of those games is very winnable. If Orlando hold's true to form of taking care teams we should beat and competing against ones that should beat us, the Magic may very well end Dec with a record of 17-18. One game off of .500 and most likely in possession of either the 8th or 7th seed in the playoffs. And only a little over a third of the way through the season. Could be a very good opportunity for this young team to really put the foot on the gas.
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You left out the most important part. He is currently 9th in PER. 9TH!!!! (well, 12th now - but still, look at who else is on this list).
While his play is going to clearly deviate back to a norm which is less than this, the numbers do not lie right now. The article that was linked also indicates that we're better on offense and better on defense as a team with O'Quinn is on the floor.
The man is going to get paid this summer, and I'm thinking O'Quinn will be more of a bargain than Harris. Would not be surprised in the least if we let Harris go but retain O'Quinn to go alongside Vuc and our starting lineup becomes Vuc-O'Quinn-Gordon-Oladipo-Payton with Fournier coming off the bench. Remember: Henny is a numbers guy who looks for quality buys. Something tells me he won't pay Harris max money but will pay O'Quinn $6-$8 mil (saving us $6-$8 mil in future salary to use).
If we let Harris walk due to not wanting to pay him a max contract while he continues putting up numbers like he is currently now, all so that the team can pay O'Quinn that kind of paycheck to be what amounts to a swing front court rotation player (remember Aaron Gordon is going to be returning), it will show that Hennigan has absolutely no knowledge in running a basketball team.
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I really would prefer to see Harris become a bit more aggressive on offense when the rest of the team shuts down. The guy seems so team centric that he doesn't want to step on anyone's toes, but when we see those rallies happen where the other team starts to put the clamps on Dipo or Nick, I want the ball in Harris' hands for him to go out and just get a bucket.
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Vegas put the over under at 28.5 wins. We're on pace for 30 wins. On jan 9th we might be on pace for 38 wins. We're exceeding expectations
Looking at the schedule I legit believe a .500 record at the end of the season is not only possible, but a good chance of actually happening. If that happens a 6th seed in the east is there for the taking.
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I really like JV as a person, but I said when they first hired him as HC that we should really have someone with more experience in there. A rookie coach with a bunch of rookie and young players going through a ground-up rebuild...
That was an experiment that was doomed to failure.
And how exactly has it failed? Orlando is on the third year from an overhaul of an entire roster change, with a roster that has about 3 people over the age of 25. The team has played, by far, bar none, the most brutal schedule of any team in the league and one of the hardest one's in team history. Despite all this they have beaten who they should have beaten and competed against teams no one would give them a chance against. All this while handling constant injuries to very key members of the roster and a rotating lineup that has no chance at continuity, which as we know is critical to a young roster.
All this and yet the magic are only a few games out of a playoff spot. The schedule becomes significantly less difficult over the next few months and players are finally getting healthy and returning. If things go as they should, Orlando easily should make it in as a 7th or 8th seed in the east, maybe as even high as fifth or sixth if they start really pouring it on.
So if in year 3 of the "Vaughn Experiment" Orlando is a playoff team with several young players like Harris, Payton, Oladipo and Vucevic all showing improvement (Two of which could be consider close to all-star level) is a failure, what in the holy hell would you consider a success?
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clearly he was just in search of...more minutes.
Haiyo! Early front runner for joke of the season.
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do you think we will make a max contract?
If he continues this rate of play he most assuredly will. And I would have no problem with the Magic paying him it. He's putting up damn near all-star level numbers and he is only 22. This is only his second year of consistent playing time and his first year of being a consistent starter.
A lot of you guys also keep forgetting, the cap is due for a big increase in the coming years. Even after the Gordon and Frye signings Orlando is still one of the lowest salary level teams in the league (if I remember the Frye signing was needed just to hit the cap floor). With the new TV deal and if Harris continues to play at his current level (or even better) his contract will look much better in a few years. It won't jeopardize some of the other signings.
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Harris' "camp" will, according to Kyler, seek an "unfavorable" offer sheet to try to force the Magic's hand.
I was reading this post and was surprised. Does harris want out of Orlando? I dont hope this is not the case. I agree that if he keeps up his production, he will get 12-14 million. I want to keep him but I dont want a player unhappy or someone that will hinder our growth as a team. He seems to like it here. what are your thoughts on the situation?
I also read something about him wanting to get paid in NY.
I severely doubt that he is looking for a way out of Orlando. If anything he wants to make sure he gets a max deal. And if he continues his rate of play, he is getting one, no question.
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Tobes is rapidly becoming one of my favorite players to wear the pinstripes. His aggressiveness, his ability to score on any way he possibly can, the high percentage shots he takes.... but more then anything his willingness to learn. Beginning of the season he was forcing to much, trying to do everything. Last night, he sat back for most of the game, let other guys take the spotlight, but the second Utah started making the run in the 4th, he put the team right on his back and took over. Love it. He keeps this pace up all year, I want him resigned.
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I was gonna say Hornets then I realized that New Orleans is the Pelicans...
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Too much playing time could be bad?
I disagree. But totally respect your comments.
32 mins a game and get tired? If a 19/20 year old gets tired they need to look at there conditioning.
I don't get how our BEST PG gets limited minutes and our SG plays PG lol. Rookie or not Payton needs to be thrown in at the deep end.. he will swim good i believe.
Guys bit of a random question but do you think maybe because our coach wasn't much of a player himself that some players wouldn't listen to him as much as someone who had done a lot more.. had more talent etc?
For a rookie too much playing time can most certainly be a bad thing. Think about it this way, in college you play what? 30-38 games at the most? And about 20-28 minutes a game on average? Your body gets set in it's conditioning and it takes a lot to break that. One offseason of conditioning isn't gonna make what is essentially a kid ready for the grown mans game, 82 games a year at 32 mins a game is gonna be brutal, especially if you haven't had the weight room time more experienced players have. This is why many coaches believe managing rookies minutes are important.
Payton's playing time will go up. Vaughn is bringing him along slowly. I think it may be too slowly like many of you do, but there is a very valid reason for it. The fact that Payton looks so special is even better reason to take extra care in his development.
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Threads like this are why I haven't been on this board much recently. Vic is one of the more talented players on this team. He is a long term building block. His jump-shot looks improved in my eyes and he's coming off to very siginificant injuries. He's a SG playing PG because Vaughn clearly believes in bringing Rookies along slowly just like Popovich does.
Oh and also... Orlando is playing one of the most brutal schedules in the league. Night after night it has been one road game after another and when they do come home it's against elite teams like Golden State. Watch. If Orlando can get out of the first half of the season being within 7-10 games of .500 this team will slowly but surely start turning it on. Payton will begin carrying a bigger load, Oladipo will be at his natural position and will have his legs under him, Harris is looking better every game, Vuc will be Vuc. O'Quinn, Harkless, Evan, and Luke off the bench. Maybe even Gordon will be back by then who knows.
Being positive is not being a homer.
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Do I think Harris is worth $10+ million. Yes, I think he is, especially with that new TV deal coming and hitting the salary cap. However, I STILL emphasize we have to begin to choose who we want to sign and who we are willing to let go. I'm sure Henny has a break-down on paper (or in his head) regarding how much players are worth and what it allows for financially to sign future players and picks. We HAVE TO remember we're going to need money to resign Oladipo, Fournier, and Gordon, not to mention (likely) Payton. All of those guys if playing to their potential are ALSO worth $10+ million. So... who do you choose? For me, I want guys who make the others around them better and play both-ways.
In my mind, Harris is a good scorer, but he isn't a particularly good passer (making teammates better) or a good defender. He's a character guy and a good teammate, but you can get that in other places. I want to put my money in Vuc, Oladipo, and Fournier, with Gordon/Payton being interchangable with Fournier depending on how they progress - though we don't have to worry about their extensions for 2-3 years. O'Quinn will also be here for a while too as a solid rotation big-man who fits into our culture.
Again, Harris is worth the money, but is not who we want to pay on this team.
To me Harris is the exact kind of guy we want on this team. Good culture guy, athletic, big, young and possesses one thing that only one other guy on this team (Vuc) has: the ability to score. Payton4theWin mentioned it earlier, but if Harris does become the type of go to scorer that he is aiming for, we actually have a team of defenders that can make that work around him. We have no idea if Vic, Payton, or Gordon's offense is ever going to catch up to their talent level or defense. With Harris, we can already see the guy is starting to look like his floor may be a 18 points a night, and his ceiling may be low to mid 20's. His jumpshot is looking great, he has a willingness to go inside and post a man up, he can attack the lane and he has the size that you want in a big 3/small 4 guy.
Now... Do I want to see him keep this up for a whole year? Well yeah I do. But I have the feeling he will. Plus... I'm really concerned about Gordon's injury. Stress fracture on an athletic freak of nature is never a good combo.
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Every game that passes I'm loving Harris more and more. Really hope he is in the long term plans for management.
Are we better without Victor Oladipo?
in Orlando Magic Forum
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Nope