D-BoFats

Guys, I have a very reliable inside source that routinely massages Stan Van Gundy with shea butter and native american herbs. Stan was in for his 6 o'clock today and he overheard a phone conversation. Apparently, the Chris Paul rumor has been a carefully executed diversion, and we're really on the verge of trading for LeBron James.

quote: Originally posted by Popsicle: I agree SVG is a better coach than Hill, but when I think of the best coach we ever had I think of Chuck Daly. He took a team with little talent (Armstrong was our best player) and led them to a .500 record. That is excellent coaching. Of course this is only my opinion. Very good point. I think SVG and Daly are 1 and 2, no doubt, and the order is debatable. There is no argument, however, that SVG is better than Brian Hill... that's what I should have said. Brian Hill doesn't even deserve to be in the conversation, and to compare SVG to Brian Hill is nothing short of ignorant.

Not to mention Brian Hill's second stint with the Magic pretty much erased any good he ever did with the franchise. It's still to the point where I get physically ill every time I see him on the sideline. What an utterly horrible coach. I wouldn't put him in the top 5. SVG is 10x the coach Brian Hill is. I'm not saying he's perfect, but he's easily the best coach we've ever had, and I really can't see how anyone can argue otherwise.

I'm saying paying Bosh that much is a complete no-brainer... you're getting Chris frickin' Bosh for role players and/or Carter. That would be an absolute steal, and of course Toronto would expect something in return. That's where Hedo comes in. Yes, he's overpayed and his contract is too long, but those things get magnified in Toronto's system. In a system where Hedo is known to thrive, the contract suddenly becomes acceptable, and a sacrifice we should be more than willing to make for Bosh. I see where you're coming from... $70 million is a lot between five players, but Lewis' mega contract comes off the books fairly soon, giving us future flexibility, and the top MLE-caliber free agents will always be attracted to a team with such a lethal frontcourt. As far as Billionaire Devos losing money in the luxury tax, I couldn't care less.

quote: Originally posted by Drunk on Mystery: You said it yourself, indirectly. Bosh is a perfect second-banana player. Put him next to a star, he'll be great. But the problem is that he's a second-banana player who's about to get a long term contract at first-banana rates, and who, if we agreed to one of the trades suggested here, would be bringing with him 1 or more players locked into long term second-banana or third-banana contracts for, at best, 5th banana production(and declining rapidly). If you want to pair Dwight with another superstar (don't you like how I so casually throw that word around) like Bosh, you have to be willing to fork out the cash. We need another perennial all-star level player to compete for the championship. The only way we get one is to sacrifice some assets in a trade and take on questionable contracts. The fact that we know Hedo works in SVG's system, by itself, lessens the risk of taking on his contract. And I wouldn't for a second hesitate to pay Chris Bosh "top-banana" dollars. If it's necessary to over-pay, and not over-paying him means not getting him, you **** sure better over-pay. It's either that or waiting forever for players like the Lebrons and Wades to become available, because they're the only ones worth paying max money for.

quote: Originally posted by Drunk on Mystery: Good point. We should all just agree with each other from now on. I'll start. RETURN OF THE KILLER TOMATOES, THE SEQUEL TO ATTACK OF THE KILLER TOMATOES, IS FAR SUPERIOR TO THE ORIGINAL FILM. There's a difference between that and arguing semantics. Words like "superstar" vary in meaning from person to person... what we should be looking at is Bosh's statistics. All I'm seeing is you trying to change the subject, because you realize I'm right that us pairing Bosh with Dwight would be lethal, no matter the trade. I'm all for a good debate, but only when the debate has a purpose. Like convincing you I'm right LOL.

Can I save you all the time of this debate by telling you ahead of time how it'll transpire? You'll argue back and forth, in stubbornness, about the meaning of a word, which varies from person to person, until you'll eventually agree that you both view the word with different meaning. Like I said, it's a winless battle.

quote: Originally posted by Drunk on Mystery: quote: Originally posted by D-BoFats:I'm taking the superstar Bosh 9 times out of 10. Are you kidding me? Are you kidding me? Bosh isn't a superstar? Last I checked, if you're the best at your position (Dirk is arguable, but he's aging), you're a superstar in this league. And I'm not going to get baited into arguing semantics... it's a winless battle.

Well put, murphy. The only way you turn down getting Bosh (which would be a gift from Toronto, any way you look at it) would be if we could somehow get somebody better (and that list is very small I might add, and even more unrealistic), or was almost as good but a better fit. Joe Johnson and Rudy Gay come to mind as lesser players but better fits... but even if we had a chance to get one of them, I'm taking the superstar Bosh 9 times out of 10.

quote: Originally posted by Lewis4thewin:smart teams are financially responsible. If we stick with our current roster and Dwight suffers a huge injury and is nothing more than antonio mcdyess for the rest of his career we have the type of flexibility to recover within two years. If Dwight gets injured with what you're proposing we're stuck with what we have for a very long time. If calderon was so good why is toronto trying to get rid of him if calderon was so good why did he split pg time with jack? Ummm... if any team's best player goes from superstar to Antonio Mcdyess, you can pretty much pack it in for a while. And are you seriously suggesting we shouldn't be trying to pair Dwight with another superstar, giving us the best chance for a championship, on the basis that he could get injured?

quote: Originally posted by Drunk on Mystery: No. I just think that it's cool to get a nicer house, but if doing so causes you to be financially hamstrung for the rest of your life, it's both stupid and irresponsible to do so. Long term planning matters. The goal is a championship... sometimes it takes accepting bad contracts (though it's not like they're THAT bad) to get the best players. Besides, once Lewis' contract is up, we'll be free from the worst contract possible, so it's not like we'd be "hamstrung" any more than we are now... and that's in what, 2 years? The only way you could deny a trade getting Bosh is if we could get LeBron, Durant, Paul, Williams, Wade or Melo (I might be missing a few) instead, and that's not happening. Otherwise, if you want a 'chip, Bosh is our best bet...

quote: Originally posted by Drunk on Mystery: That's debatable, but it's also irrelevant to my point. A trade that doesn't improve us significantly enough to win a title(and nothing you or anyone else has suggested would), that would ALSO hamstring us in the CAP so badly that we'd be unable to make a single move of even mild significance until after Dwight is a free agent is a fundamentally bad one. You seem to be equating "get better players" with "awesome trade #1!". It doesn't work that way. If we could hypothetically trade Bass for Elton Brand straight up, the fact that Brand is a clearly superior player to Bass doesn't change the fact that such a move would be a completely ludicrous one. I'm running out of different ways to explain this. So in other words, you think there are better alternatives to pairing the best two young big men in the NBA... Gotcha!

quote: Originally posted by Lewis4thewin:no, carter is a bad player with a manageable contract. Hedo/calderon are bad players with terrible long contracts. we take on either of those players we're done making moves for 4 years. Carter is an expiring contract that will essentially be worthless to us if we keep him... Calderon's contract is hardly as terrible as you make it out to be, especially considering he's consistently at the top of the league in assist to turnover ratio, and Hedo is moderately overpayed for WAY to long, but he fits well in our system. And we'd be pairing the best two young big men in the NBA (should I repeat that again?), so it's all irrelevant.

quote: Originally posted by Drunk on Mystery: quote: Originally posted by D-BoFats:You said you could come up with 12 trades... you'll say you were exaggerating, so I'll challenge you to come up with 3 trades (a far cry) that would involve us pairing arguably the best two big men in the NBA (I'll give you Dirk, Gasol and Amare are in the discussion), and Toronto ends up winning the trade. Except that I never said I could think of 12 trades where Toronto won the trade. What I said was: "I can think of dozens of trades off the top of my head that wouldn't be worth making, even though they put Dwight and Bosh on a team." In other words: they wouldn't be justifiable on our end, regardless of who "wins" the trade. And given that a trade that brings in Calderon and/or Turkoglu gives us mediocre players and extends our salary CAP nightmare even further out than it already goes, ANY trade that brings back both of them is immediately a non-starter, and really any trade that brings back Hedo back at all is a stupid one, given that he has a trade kicker and there's zero hope he doesn't exercise his final year(especially if it's worth 15-20% more, like it will be when he's traded). So those trades are out. They won't trade Bargnani, and given that this board complains CONSTANTLY about how poor our 4s defend and rebound, we/they wouldn't want him anyway, and given that he's going to be making 10m a season for the next half decade, we probably don't need him. So he's out. So yeah. Basically any trade where we take on large amounts of additional long term salary beyond Bosh while also giving up any serious long term assets is a complete nonstarter. That basically covers every trade for Bosh that's been proposed in this or any other thread on this board. Are we done here? By us taking on Hedo and/or Bargnani with Bosh, that would also require us losing Lewis or Carter (God forbid!) in the deal, so it would be dumping bad contracts (or Carter) for bad contracts. And I would gladly take back Hedo or Bargnani if it meant we'd have the best frontcourt in the NBA, hands down. There's simply no way to spin it... if there is a trade with Toronto where we end up with Bosh, while keeping Howard, we will absolutely improve.

quote: Originally posted by Drunk on Mystery: quote: Originally posted by D-BoFats:Role players can be replaced, especially when you have Dwight and Bosh attracting FA's. The ONLY player not named Dwight you would hesitate trading for Bosh is Jameer. Bosh is the best offensive big man in the NBA... he's a year older than Dwight... that combination would give us the best frontcourt for YEARS, and could arguably become the best 4-5 combo ever. I'm sorry, but we don't have one player other than Dwight even remotely on Bosh's level, and to argue otherwise is asinine. You always take star power over role players. That's true, but not remotely what you initially said. You said that any trade that brought Bosh here without losing Dwight should be accepted, without fail and without question. That logic is preposterous. Changing it to "Bosh for any player on our team besides Dwight, straight up, is a trade we should make" is a really silly strawman you've made to try to change the subject. I mean, do you want to make this a contest? Do you want me to prove that I can come up with godawful trades that net us Bosh where we keep Dwight? I've got nothing on my plate after a noon meeting today, so that's no problem. It'll only take me about 2 minutes on the trade machine. Also: Bosh isn't the best offensive big man in the NBA(Dirk is), and Bosh/Dwight wouldn't be better than Drob/Duncan, Sampson/Olajuwon, Bellamy/Reed, or Gilmore/Issel, and that's just off the top of my **** head. Obviously it wouldn't be just Jameer, since that wouldn't even work contract-wise. And yes, I'd love to see you come up with a trade where we end up with the best two players on either team, and we somehow get the short end of the stick. The WORST that could happen is that we lose Jameer, Lewis and his god-awful contract, and Vince Carter (all "core" players)... and even that, with the massive contracts involved, would require us receiving a combination of Turkoglu, Calderon, and/or Bargnani... so we'd essentially be losing nothing. I mean, you could honestly trade our entire team for their entire team (as incredibly un-realistic as that is), and we'd still come out on top... it would be like the Raps having Dwight last year with SVG as the coach. I'm looking up and down their roster right now, and they have very solid players, all with fairly reasonable contracts. You said you could come up with dozens of trades... you'll say you were exaggerating, so I'll challenge you to come up with 3 trades (a far cry) that would involve us pairing arguably the best two big men in the NBA (I'll give you Dirk, Gasol and Amare are in the discussion), and Toronto ends up winning the trade. The notion becomes even more ridiculous when you consider the draft, free agency, and our TPE are all still available to replace any role players we lose.

Role players can be replaced, especially when you have Dwight and Bosh attracting FA's. The ONLY player not named Dwight you would hesitate trading for Bosh is Jameer. Bosh is the best offensive big man in the NBA... he's a year older than Dwight... that combination would give us the best frontcourt for YEARS, and could arguably become the best 4-5 combo ever. I'm sorry, but we don't have one player other than Dwight even remotely on Bosh's level, and to argue otherwise is asinine. You always take star power over role players.

Crysis 2 is going to be the shi8, and you heard it here first. I wanted to play the first one, but it wasn't on consoles. Mark my words, it'll set the bar for console shooters.

If you seriously think any trade that allows us to pair Chris Bosh with Dwight Howard is a bad one, you're wrong. I don't care if it's an opinion... you're wrong. In addition to being wrong, you're also something else, but I won't go there. I really can't stress enough how wrong you are though, and I'm actually embarrassed I felt the need to even acknowledge the idea. Just wrong.

Some of you guys don't understand... we're competing with the likes of Miami, New York, New Jersey and Chicago to offer the best sign-and-trade. Sure, those teams have some nice trade assets, but those very trade assets are necessary to STAY with the team in order to ATTRACT the top free agents. i.e. Nobody's going to New Jersey if the sign-and-trade involves Harris or Lopez. So we can be competitive if the team decides they don't want to let the player walk. And you better believe, the big name free agent's agent will be pushing hard for a sign-and-trade to get top $.

quote: Originally posted by ball junkie: quote: Originally posted by Jareth Cutestory:I'm just saying this right now. THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO WAY WE GET LEBRON JAMES. The ONLY realistic "big name FA" we will possibly get is Boozer. Mark it down folks, and don't get your hopes up. I finally agree with Jareth on something...and we ain't gettin' Boozer either...we ain't got nothing on this roster other teams want. As Jareth said...don't get your hopes up... You say that like we're a lottery team or something. Really, the only unattractive piece we have is Lewis' contract. VC at the LEAST is a hefty expiring contract who can sell tickets. Nelson is a top point guard. Gortat is widely considered the best back-up big man in the league; he's young, tall, athletic, has good defense -- very rare and valuable. Ryan Anderson? Bass? Pietrus? Redick?

Lebron and Wade are without a doubt the least likely to get. Like I said though, I'd be surprised if we didn't get either Bosh, Amare, Boozer, Johnson, or Nowitzki. If the player decides he's leaving his team, he'll give the GM two options: let him walk, or work a sign-and-trade. If Chris Bosh for example, decided he was out of Toronto, he could either sign outright with Miami, or he could tell the GM he would accept a sign-and-trade to Orlando. Either way, he's going to leave for Florida. It's then up to Toronto's GM to (a) sign-and-trade with Orlando, (B) sign-and-trade with Miami, or © let him walk. I love that Otis is offering anyone not named Dwight in a trade, since we're essentially competing with teams like Miami, New York, etc. to make the best sign-and-trade offer.

Good to hear. I'd be even more shocked now if we didn't get a top free agent this summer.

I'm with jareth on this one. I haven't tried the deluxe yet, but the regular one was delicious. It's like god himself hand crafted the sandwich, seasoning it perfectly, then carefully placing the pickles in just the right spot. You simply can't beat CFA's chicken and quality with any other fast food joint... it's their specialty.

Well, I guess it's "cya!" for the value of VC's expiring contract.

This is old, from around November, but it gets me excited... quote: "If I could pick one player in the league today to play with -- and most people think I'd say LeBron James -- I would pick Dwight (Howard)," Wade told FanHouse Wednesday after practice at Amway Arena. "I'd love for that to happen at some point. Dwight is already close right here in Orlando. People who say it couldn't happen (us playing on the same team), they don't know. I've learned in this league that anything is possible." http://nba.fanhouse.com/2009/1...ould-end-in-orlando/ Too bad it's not going to happen... it's only a dream.