TRoss43
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Posts posted by TRoss43
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13 minutes ago, magicblue said:He can’t facilitate anything on any unit at this point in time
Honestly...how would you know? There hasn't been an offensive set on the 2nd unit in two years! I love the ability of Ross to single-handedly shoot us back into a game. Problem is...he doesn't know the difference in providing a spark and letting the game coming to him. He's obviously been instructed to bomb away. I think getting the ball out of his hands and letting Fultz/Bama start working some pick-and-roll stuff with Ross spotting up more would make a big difference for consistency. We know what we have on our starting group minus JI. His ceiling is still ahead of him. We need to find out what Fultz and Bamba can do. With Ross running with them, that growth will be stagnated. I'm personally think we have the talent to move into the mid-upper eschelon in the East but we have to develop it. If we aren't going to try and grow Bamba into a 2-way stud, then trade him and play Birch.
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I referred to the 2nd group running more through him on offense i.e. inside-out where Ross isn't shooting contested 3's every time down. I'm not saying he needs to shoot more but I believe he can facilitate a more repeatable efficiency for that group than what we have now.
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Ross should have his green light revoked and made to play within the confines of a set offensive rotation. This is a stereo-typical win for us. Good team defense with Vuc carrying us down the stretch. These games will be 20+ point wins when AG/Ross/Fournier have decent to above decent shooting nights. We will loose our fair share when they have offensive games like tonight. It's Vuc and then I would argue JI is making a push to be our 2nd offensive option right now. Fournier thinks its him but Cliff needs to make him think otherwise. Fultz will be a question mark for much of the first half of the season, especially on offense. The 2nd group needs to start running offense through Bamba more.
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As Vuch goes, so will this team. You can't build an offense around anyone else right now. Last night was a one-off for him. The plan was to have Gordon be the "go-too" guy by now. As I've said before, Gordon knows that and the pressure he feels to be that guy is destroying his ability to function on the offensive end. He doesn't have an identity in terms of shot selection within the flow of the game. He wants to shoot 3's...he wants to dribble...he wants to facilitate. These are all things he can't consistently do. JI need to have more and more sets run through him. He may be our best chance at finding "that guy". Gordan needs to play more around the basket w/o the ball in his hands on the perimeter. His best chance to be consistent right now is by using his athletic ability to positively impact our offense. He should still pop out and take some 3's but that doesn't need to be the norm.
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1 hour ago, ?4thewin said:Good breakdown from a professional scout on fultz
This is a nice breakdown. So lets discuss this..Would you agree with the consensus opinion that Fournier/Vuc together creates to much stagnation on offense and certainly leaves us 2 minus defenders on that end? If so, how about starting Fultz at the 2, let DJ play off the ball more and allow Fultz to do we he apparently is most capable of doing now...distribute and play plus defense. Maybe that gives us less time with Fournier/AG with the ball in their hands and we actually create open shots through ball movement? Also, when DJ can square his shoulders from 3, he's deadly. Playing off the ball more would facilitate that. I wouldn't mind Iwundu running point some with the 2nd group. We all know as soon as TR touches it, its going up anyway. It was never that I thought Fultz couldn't contribute, it was that the early feedback on this board for his play didn't match what I saw with my own eyes. This team lacks a cohesive offense and maybe having two PG-skilled guys together would minimize what we aren't good at and maximize the skill sets of our guys who are capable scorers. Plus I believe Fultz would be an upgrade against other team's 2's defensively. Right now we don't need Fultz feeling like he HAS to score. I think that's what AG is/will struggle with this year.
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I think we are asking the same question at the beginning of this season as we've been asking for a long time....when the game is on the line, who takes the shot? Right now, it's still Vuc. We sure did/do need AG to become a complete offensive player. AG just seems to be too much in his own head to get there. Fournier thinks he's that guy and I guess he could stake a claim to it as currently constructed. Therein lies the problem. We are gonna run people outta the gym when AG/Fournier?Ross are on at the same time. We are gonna suffer a lot of ugly losses because we can't adjust when they aren't. Vuc is 18-8 every night and that's the only thing we can hang our hat on.
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7 hours ago, ?4thewin said:Oh no the guy who thinks we should start Bamba at the 4 and bring Gordon off the bench thinks fultz is bad. What a terrible sign for his future.
I can name quite a few players who were drafted high, let go by their team, then go on to have high level success elsewhere.
Lol...but you reminded me about Aminu and I changed it! You dismiss Bamba in the starting lineup like its something that has been done to death. It hasn't so your "empirical" evidence is very thin. Here's my thought process...Vuc/Bamba can play hi-low interchangeably on offense with Bamba being the rim protector we so desperately need on defense. The thought is that Vuc would get torched by a good PF. How bout Vuc gets torched by good 5's too so that really is a push imo. Here's where our starting lineup is-DJ-good offensive PG and a below avg. defensive PG. Fournier-Far too inconsistent on offense. He's a spot and shoot guy trying to play a slasher. Below avg. D. JI-4th option on offense so will never be a big scorer on the floor with the rest of these "volume shooters" we have. Above avg.to elite D. Gordon-schizophrenic offensive player who is going to press far too much this year to show he is our "superstar" player. D is above avg to elite. Vuc is Vuc. Offensive sparkplug that is lazy defensively. This lineup has been done to death and its not growing. Last year our 2nd group with Ross shooting out of his mind was the best part of team for several stretches. This current starting lineup will likely be worse statistically than they were last year. I just don't like the chemistry of this 1st group. It's just my opinion, which you obviously don't share. See you at the 8th seed!
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It's a rare occurrence when a team drafts a guy as high as Philly drafted Fultz, then let him go for nothing and then that guy becomes a gamechanger for another team. My early commentary on Fultz(that everyone disagreed with) was that he did not look like a guy who was going to dramatically move the needle for the Magic. All the glowing comments on here about how athletic and explosive Fultz was after a couple games was just downright silly. People refused to believe that we had another PG that can't shoot and turns the ball over too much. He looks like a guy who had his original team punt on instead of continuing a seemingly fruitless process of rehabilitation. We all want him to be an integral part of the Magic's future. We need him to be. It's not unfair to say that he has shown very little so far to make anyone he will be. This is the NBA. Gotta bring more than athleticism and an occasional turnaround jumper from 12 ft. Maybe in time....
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2 hours ago, ?4thewin said:There's a lot of empirical evidence that shows this would be an incredibly terrible idea
I don't think the evidence is empirical at all. Have you witnessed this lineup playing together for an extended period? Do you think the current starting lineup doesn't have empirical evidence suggesting that it's topped out? Should we play it straight and work hard for the 8th seed again because that will be the eventual outcome if we change nothing. I did forget about Aminu. Start him in place of AG and move Bamba back to 2nd unit. How do you think that would work?
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9 hours ago, TheNameIsOrlando said:Butler was 25 when he broke out. Gordon is 24. Relax...
Also that starting lineup is awful.
That starting lineup is awful...why? MCW is a facilitator vs Fournier who is not. I assume Bamba over AG is a hangup for you? We don't need our 4/5 guys dribbling all over the court and trying to play like a 1/2. I'm afraid next year you will say Gordon is 25...Relax and on and on. He's had plenty of time to show consistency on offense. He hasn't and i'm just pointing out the obvious.
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Still no go-to guy. I hoped AG was going to develop into a "Jimmy Butler" type guy for Magic. I think I've seen enough now to realize he's probably always gonna be a great athlete with erratic offensive tools except dunking. I think Fournier, AG and Ross are going to be a continued hinderance to total team cohesiveness on offense. I would like to see DJ, MCW, JI, Bamba and Vuc start given our current roster. Put Fultz, Fournier, Ross, AG and KB on the 2nd group. We know Vuc/Fournier together is slow and slower 2-man offense. If we don't do something to fix that dynamic, the offense will be underwhelming for long stretches in far too many games. Our 2nd unit has a chance to be good but Clifford needs to reign Ross in and remind him that he actually has some guys around him now that can score. It's very frustrating to watch a Heat team with 1 go-to guy and a bunch of slappies, move the ball and execute an offense that is cohesive and gets open looks continuously.
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4 minutes ago, ?4thewin said:If you break down his games exclusively with Davis before he announced his trade demand and after he announced his trade demand there's still not a considerable difference in his stats.
Just on a straight line projection w/o any other metrix involved, what do you think Fultz's numbers will be at the end of season?(considering he's healthy for the majority of season) Just PPG/RB/Assists. I say 10-5-5. What say you?
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9 hours ago, 3rd Quarter Collapse said:1 hour ago, ?4thewin said:Payton played in lineups with Anthony Davis, jrue holiday, and Julius Randle last year and had identical numbers to his entire career.
Basketball is different because players succeed in different ways— there’s large differences in how players like Curry make an impact and how players like Westbrook make an impact. It’s not a uniform “Fielding, speed, power, hitting consistency” like it is in baseball since players in basketball find their own success in their own ways. You also haven’t defined what those “5 tools” are, and even if you did, it’d be arbitrary because it’d be biased to certain styles of play.
Fultz is our best passer on the team. He’s the best at getting into the paint, and once his finishing improves, he’ll become a valuable scorer off the bench (I remember Oladipo having a similar struggle his rookie year of getting to the basket often but not being able to convert that into points. He improved on that drastically as he progressed throughout the season and into his career, though). He’s a plus defender with his length and size, and I’ve seen him be pretty active with steals and deflections.
If you want to call that the 4 tools— defending, passing, scoring, shooting— Fultz is already a 2 tool player, with a pretty short term projection of becoming a 3 tool player as his finishing improves. With respect, I don’t really see what you’re seeing— the passing and defense seem pretty plain to the eye to me, and he was terrific getting to the basket versus Boston.
I appreciate your points. Defense prowess of a PG is somewhat subjective because they switch so much .There were games where Payton's on-ball defense was excellent. Again, a PG's defensive effectiveness is not as obvious as guys in the post. Also, your last statement was that he was terrific getting to the basket tonight. Payton too was terrific at getting to the basket. You actually have to be able to finish for it to matter. Payton was sub-par there and Fultz(small sample) has been too. I got hammered pretty good for my Payton comp and have heard several times that they are completely different players. Completely different? Really? Payton had them same type of honeymoon period on here when everyone wanted to believe that he was our PG of the future. I'll take it a step further. Had Payton played with this current Magic talent, I believe his numbers would be as good/better than Fultz's numbers will be. I hope I'm wrong and if I am, i'll gladly admit it. I do appreciate comments and respect yours/others opinions on this.
1 hour ago, ?4thewin said:Payton played in lineups with Anthony Davis, jrue holiday, and Julius Randle last year and had identical numbers to his entire career.
Payton's number with Orlando was roughly 10-4-6. I'm going to predict that Fultz's numbers after this yr. will be 10-5-5. Solid enough numbers for a back-up PG but if you read all the glowing commentary about Fultz on here, I think it's safe to say that people don't think they are looking at a guy who will just put up solid back-up numbers. He was totally worth a shot in terms of what the front office packaged to get him. I just don't think he's the piece that moves Orlando into the upper eschelon of the Eastern conf. I believe that piece was already on the roster. 3 pieces actually~AG,JI and MB. Their individual growth will determine how far the Magic climb in conference for the next several years. I also believe that had the F.O. not resigned Vuc, this whole growth curve would've been severely hampered. He is still the "glue guy" on this team because of his ability to keep our offense moving. Bamba, I believe will become that guy, but he's not yet. With the range that both Bamba/Vuc possess, I would like to see these two on the court together more this year. Bamba can protect paint and minimize Vuc's weakness on that front. A lineup of DJ/TRoss/AG/Vuc/Bamba could be very potent on both ends.
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1 hour ago, 3rd Quarter Collapse said:Basketball is different because players succeed in different ways— there’s large differences in how players like Curry make an impact and how players like Westbrook make an impact. It’s not a uniform “Fielding, speed, power, hitting consistency” like it is in baseball since players in basketball find their own success in their own ways. You also haven’t defined what those “5 tools” are, and even if you did, it’d be arbitrary because it’d be biased to certain styles of play.
Fultz is our best passer on the team. He’s the best at getting into the paint, and once his finishing improves, he’ll become a valuable scorer off the bench (I remember Oladipo having a similar struggle his rookie year of getting to the basket often but not being able to convert that into points. He improved on that drastically as he progressed throughout the season and into his career, though). He’s a plus defender with his length and size, and I’ve seen him be pretty active with steals and deflections.
If you want to call that the 4 tools— defending, passing, scoring, shooting— Fultz is already a 2 tool player, with a pretty short term projection of becoming a 3 tool player as his finishing improves. With respect, I don’t really see what you’re seeing— the passing and defense seem pretty plain to the eye to me, and he was terrific getting to the basket versus Boston.
I appreciate your points. Defense prowess of a PG is somewhat subjective because they switch so much .There were games where Payton's on-ball defense was excellent. Again, a PG's defensive effectiveness is not as obvious as guys in the post. Also, your last statement was that he was terrific getting to the basket tonight. Payton too was terrific at getting to the basket. You actually have to be able to finish for it to matter. Payton was sub-par there and Fultz(small sample) has been too. I got hammered pretty good for my Payton comp and have heard several times that they are completely different players. Completely different? Really? Payton had them same type of honeymoon period on here when everyone wanted to believe that he was our PG of the future. I'll take it a step further. Had Payton played with this current Magic talent, I believe his numbers would be as good/better than Fultz's numbers will be. I hope I'm wrong and if I am, i'll gladly admit it. I do appreciate comments and respect yours/others opinions on this.
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4 minutes ago, ?4thewin said:"At some point" isn't the preseason.
Do you disagree with anything other than the small sample size? That's obviously correct and he's going to get better. I coached baseball at a pretty high level for years and you have 5 tools that you are evaluated as a player. Basketball has the same type evaluation sets. 5 tool guys are "can't miss'. 4 tool guys are essentially the same. when you get below that, you better have a plus plus skill that will carry you. With respect to Fultz, he has yet to show a single skill set that would be considered plus in by NBA standards.
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9 hours ago, ?4thewin said:I'm a pretty big MCW defender but the player fultz is today is better than the player MCW is today.
That hypothetical is unfairly stacked against fultz because you're using nebulous criteria to create a situation where he's third place.
You're giving fultz 3 preseason games worth of evaluation which is problematic to begin with (because look up and down our preseason team averages and tell me how many statistics are representative of what a player is projected to do this year) but you're looking at MCW and augustin through the context of their performance over the last few months of the previous season.
If you were to remove all context and just judge all 3 by the preseason performances fultz isn't in third place.
If you were to add in context and judge all 3 by more than the preseason you have to account for projections of improvement for fultz's numbers based on an increase of experience and you have to add in the context that MCW was out of the league and unwanted before we scooped him up to play a very important but well defined role and in that role he was among the least efficient offensive players in the NBA. Considerably less efficient than fultz in Philly.
I think at some point you are just going to have to trust what you see with Fultz. At this point, he's not very good and will not move the needle for this team if he doesn't get much better. Its not hard to see when you watch with an objective eye. I want him to succeed and the Magic need him to succeed. I still maintain that people want to believe in something that isn't there. The Sixers don't dump him for a song and dance if it was just a matter of him getting healthy. They cut bait because he never flashed for them. Oh and I enjoy the respectful way you discuss opposing viewpoints. This certainly isn't personal towards Fultz or anyone on here. For any Vuc haters on here, tonights game was a microcosm of how this team would have struggled offensively had he not of been re-signed. History will look favorably on his stint with Orlando.
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On 10/8/2019 at 9:40 AM, ?4thewin said:This is a pretty shallow comparison. And I think you completely misevaluate why Payton struggles.
Payton didn't fail because he couldn't shoot. Payton failed because he couldn't shoot, was statistically the worst pick and roll defender in the league, and his offensive output waxed and waned where he'd have weeks where he'd be great followed by long stretches where he'd produce like a backup. He was timid and tentative far too often.
It's been 2 games and while a fultz who can shoot is preferable to one that can't his success isn't going to be defined by his three point shooting, it's going to be entirely based on his ability to get to the rim and draw a second defender. So far it seems like he's going to be proficient enough at that.
After 3 games of pre-season...if you were told you had to cut 1 of 3 players that include DJ, MCW and Fultz, which one would it be? No context...no extrapolation...just results that you've seen from each. I want to believe in Fultz but I'm not seeing what a lot of folks on here are with him. Even if I took his 3 point shooting, which is obviously abysmal right now, I just don't see all this athleticism and fluidity with the ball in his hands. What am I missing?
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2 minutes ago, ?4thewin said:We're not really grasping for anything. We're reviewing the player he is based on little things he does well which is something we can extrapolate into expectations going forward which is much more substantial than your point which seems to be "bad shooter=bad player".
Your analysis is kind of weak because it's coming from a really shallow comparison. And we would be super excited about him if he was an udfa rookie (if not more excited because his performance wouldn't be burdened by a nebulous illness) because we'd be watching a dynamic young player make plays on both ends of the court.
So again, fultz will be fine and a positive impact guy on this team if he pays good defense and can regularly get into the paint while drawing extra defenders.
I get it. All good and I hope your extrapolation is correct and mine turns out to be wrong. There’s plenty to be excited about regardless. Our 2nd unit has a chance to be extremely good. Most 2nd units are one-sided on what they do well. I think this group will equally capable of defending and scoring. Bamba is gonna carry this team at times during the season if he stays healthy. Gordon looks extremely confident and may see a big move in status in this league. For the first time in a long time it seems as if this team were designed with an actual vision of a style it wants to play!
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3 hours ago, magicdoc1 said:I don't think it is fair for you to say that. Completely different players.
Fultz is a Very high IQ player and is 10 times better defender than Payton.
Offensively, maybe the are not much different at the moment but yet again I think is unfair on your part to compare a full players offensive nba career to a 2 preseason game sample of Fultz.
Chill..
Right now we all are grasping at something good to say about Fultz. I hope very much that he becomes a major force on this team. If he does, this team can compete with anyone in the East. Right now, if he was a FA out of college and people watched these first two games, nobody would be excited. The Payton comparison was in reference to how much of an impact he had on winning and how much I see Fultz having on winning. This team is much better than the teams that Payton played on and will win more w/wo Fultz. Fultz has a long way to go to just be as good as DJ, so maybe it's appropriate to pump the brakes a little. Anyway...JMO. He can certainly get better and I hope he does.
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Fultz is Peyton 2.0. His shot from distance is nowhere near being a reliable piece of his repertoire. I wanted to see something more than that in the first two games but objectively, it is what it is. This team is going to be formidable but Fultz will just be a 2nd unit guy that will give solid minutes and ball distribution. I don’t see much more and yes, I’m making this assessment after 2 pre-season games.
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Magic Vs. Knicks - Wednesday, Oct. 30th at 7:00 P.M.
in Orlando Magic Forum
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Well its kinda like Vuc's development in reverse. Vuc didn't have the 3 in his game but now plays hi-low as good as any big in the league. Don't you think Bamba has the skills to develop a respectable low-post game? That's why I continue to use the word "develop". Also again...I'm not saying Bamba needs to become the "scorer" for the 2nd group but I believe he could develop into I guy that has to be doubled on the block which would lead to better shots. He's a big, athletic dude and can shoot. He's already a plus shooter from range and as he becomes more aggressive, he will be formidable around the block. Part of his timidity IMO is because he has Ross firing away and he doesn't look to get actively involved at times. That's a coaching thing.