magicjed23

I don't think Rob will trade Vucevic. Nobody here has ever predicted a Hennigan move. Maybe people wishing for some lesser player they overrate and after several chances we eventually get that player, like Biyombo and Watson people say they called it, but those aren't predictions. If you think that it was clear we would trade Victor, it really wasn't at all because he has improved every year even if he isn't an All-Star. You could say that we wondered if Payton and Victor were a good fit together. And some might have decided that Fournier was more impressive than Vic because he had some impressive offensive games this season, but most smart fans expected Fournier to get more, but few ever suggested Oladipo would be less valued and be replaced by Evan. I think he might get an offer after Durant chooses a team, but the way it sounds, teams think they still can get him. Remember no deals are official, but at $17 million Fournier is a steal. It is becoming very obvious that Rob views 3 players as mainstays: Payton, Fournier, and Vucevic. Mario and Gordon are very high potential and if either becomes a star or close enough, then Rob was reasonably successful at worst. But, even though we thought we would see more offense from Hezonja, Skiles treated him like it was boot camp and went from being tempted to start him to basically not letting him learn until playoffs became a long shot. Make no mistake about it, every team wants him, but they just want him free essentially. Harris was one of Robs guys, but after Harris didn't show improvements and to try and appease Skiles and Martins, Rob reluctantly traded for what he could at the time. As for free agency, Rob thought because Milsap interviewed that others would too. But, we didn't go after anyone either because Henny keeps it hush hush when most players want their name mentioned to drum up attention. I think he felt he made an amazing trade for Ibaka, when it's just a very risky trade. He remembers the extra raw Ibaka that was only going uphill in Rob's OKC days. Question is which Ibaka are we getting ? Bad knees or first team defense Serge? But he feels that was the big "free agent" so to speak and won the summer. Or he just gave up because nobody has really moved or left their current team. Super teams are dead because it is like buying a ring and those team don't get the same glory because they are expected to win. C- Vucevic will be starting (unless something big happens).Biyombo and Dedmon back up. Vuc is more likely to be traded to help acquire a star next summer and allow us to keep Ibaka if he has a great year PF- Ibaka will start at 4 for sure and will chase C's and PF's as Vuc can't. Vucevic will clog the lane on defense and when his man gets the ball Ibaka will be looking for blocks and weakside rebounds. Same thing when Biyombo comes off the bench, except he assumes Ibaka's role. Smith backup. SF- Aaron Gordon starts at 3 and will be pushed by Jeff Green and possibly Hezonja. Green is aggressive offense and what we need from Hezonja and Gordon, hope is that makes the young guys, who Rob sees as the future if either develop the way we hope. Marble is insurance and garbage time unless injuries force us to use him. SG- Fournier is the obvious SG starter who will be spelled by Hezonja , and Meeks to a lesser extent. PG- Payton starts and if he is off, Augustin gets lots of time. Watson is the defensive option Hezonja gets used for stretches at point-forward. Bench- Green becomes a 6th man type and battles Hezonja for minutes at 3. We will look to keep Dedmon and Smith. Watson is a wait and see guy and Shabazz is cut or D-league. Marble makes the team as the last player. Zimmerman is D-league unless Dedmon is offered too much (Dedmon becomes a force this year) or Smith goes. Small ball as needed. Ibaka, Gordon, Hezonja/Green, Fournier/Meeks, Payton/Augustin (Watson for defense at 1 or 2.) The offense will be run through Vucevic because he is a solid 18-20ppg and best offensive player (Fournier can't create unless his counterpart is slower or weaker than him but he does not create offense, this is our Achilles heel this year, creating when Vucevic is off his game or a defense buckles down and will get us beat in the playoffs, we need this hole and to convince a star that a capable star will solve and take the offensive reigns from Vucevic) Fournier will be option 2a, Ibaka 2b. Gordon gets the garbage still. Bench will be ran through Green and later Hezonja, and swing the ball to the open guy for 3's and alley-oops for our 3 athletic bigs, and Green, and Hezonja. If we get reasonable improvements for Aaron and Mario, Ibaka returns to previous form, we get point guard consistency, Evan and Nik improve slightly, and players play their roles we have a playoff team, how high depends on cohesive play. And great defense inside. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Please post what percentage you think the following occur. Just for fun. Chance we make playoffs: 55%. Chance at 10 game improvement: 55% Chance at utter collapse or failure: 45% Fournier gets 20 ppg: 55% Vogel is Coach of the Year: 30% Payton is Most Improved: 70% The 6th Man is a Magic player: 50% We have a player in All-Star game: 30% Air Gordon gets his revenge in dunk contest: 100% Change at 2017 free agent: 35% Gordon or Hezonja becomes a star in 2-3 years: 60% Chance Ibaka is not declining permanently: 40% Ibaka has career year: 25% Chance Ibaka re-signs: 30% Chance Ibaka is 30+ years old: 85% Chance Henny is fired if we miss playoffs: 90% Chance Henny is fired if we make playoffs but strike out in 2017 free agency: 90%

I personally would much rather have a Floridian named Brandon Knight. Every bit as good with way less wear and better knees.

That stretch was also not at the start of the season. It was 30 something games in that it happened. Also it was short lived, as Vic played great like 5 games. Fournier was very bad during that stretch. Victor played well the rest of the season with a few great games . Evan was wildly up and down after Vic returned to starter with some great scoring efforts sprinkled in.

Just remember that this trade guarantees Fournier that $20M per season contract so many of you of you don't think he is worth. He doesn't suddenly deserve more because of the trade. I think his is worth it, but someone is going to offer 20 million just to make Henny spend more. But, a few days ago all we heard was "Fournier doesn't deserve 20M". He will get it now for sure. We have to keep Evan and pay him the max because we are screwed without him. If you want Derozan, you're not very knowledgeable about the way he scores or how he would fit in. He doesn't fit here when we have midrange shooters and non-shooters everywhere. Derozan takes long 2s almost exclusively and he drives just a bit. Ad has shown an inability to play well in the playoffs. He is worse than Dipo was at the 3 ball. Vucevic and Ibaka are midrange shooters for the most part. Payton and Gordon can't shoot, and are only average slashers. Derozan brings no defense, neither does Vucevic, and Payton still gets beat badly more often than not. Ibaka will have to block a million shots, which will lead to tons of fouls and a seat on the bench. We won't keep up when everyone is raining 3s while we take the lowest % shot every possession. We just don't have spacing when every player either takes a long two or drives into a crowded lane because nobody respects our shooters. Beal is Fournier on offense with less defense and he i s injury prone and essentially the same age. Adding Batum would not make up losing Vic and Fournier because he is not a lead SG. He works with Fournier, but we need both and they both would be max players, Please explain why it's suddenly not a problem to pay $20M+ for a guy who so many think was not worth that last week? We forced ourselves to be desperate, it guarantees his price will be higher, but how does that make him worth that price now? It's like the supposed overbidding of ourselves for Rashard Lewis. Henny caused a price increase just as Otis overpaid, but some of you aren't upset now though you were before with Otis. I gave Rob the benefit of the doubt because he had a solid plan of collecting assets and only needing to hit once to get a centerpiece. But, we hit terrible draft classes, and the year with 3 players we picked 4th, the year with 4 players we picked 5th. Oladipo was lauded and considered te best pick available when we chose him. Rob has to now turn the few assets we have into a playoff team because fans are too impatient because our franchise has been very fortunate being so young. Many say he hasn't signed anyone good, well he actually didn't tank hard enough. He tried to sign leadership to grow our players and we won too much. Unless we could somehow get a star, we would have. Rob is losing my confidence because the return on the recent (within the last 6 months) trades we made is very minimal honestly. This trade is far from a safe bet for us, because there is a good chance that Ibaka doesn't regain his form, and even if he does, we can easily lose him for nothing. Just hope we cash in during the next month, but of course we have money when everyone else does and no actually available franchise players. Pull out a Batum/Conley while keeping Fournier and Vucevic , then all is forgiven. Even just one of Batum, Conley, or Horford is fine if we make the playoffs and put up a fight, and we have a shot next year for another top flight player (but miss there and it's pray Gordon or Hezonja is a star. But, get nothing, Rob likely is done due to his low return trades because we'll be back at square one. At which case we should have kept tanking until we hit instead of being mediocre and just outside the better part of the lottery. Fans won't let Henny survive if we have to start over. And since Vic didn't blossom in 3 years , do we dump AG if he doesn't this year? That seems to be the time limit for most on this forum. He has yet to show more than Victor. Why does he get more time? I'm being sarcastic, but can we have patience with our players 24 and under please?

Pat Garrity, thought he could play D. Brandon Bass (early years) Tony Battie (played PF and C) Andrew DeClercq (played PF and C) Glen Davis (signed for defense) Drew Gooden (early years) Ben Wallace (PF who played C out of necessity) Bo Outlaw (SF but player mostly PF) Donnell Harvey Shawn Kemp (somewhat) Jason Maxiell (PF played C often) Kyle O' Quinn (PF who played C out of necessity) Don Reid Derek Strong David Vaughn Horace Grant Part 2 when he came back. All were mostly defensive players, some had a little offense, but they were here for defense mainly. We have had tons of PF-C who were defensive minded.Remember we tried everyone and every PF-C pairing after losing Shaq.

Well , I trusted Henny before now. Foolish trade for a declining player, and a draft pick. What is he thinking? Fournier will be signed for sure now. Oladipo>>>>Fournier. This just means we chose Fournier. If there isn't something else in the works really soon I will be pissed. This makes me as unhٴunhappy as Shaq, Penny, TiMac, and Dwight leaving. For Ibaka? Player who is older than reported and already declining. We were robbed of an All-Star. He will breakout next to Durant. So Durant gets to play with Dipo, but not here. This eliminates te slim chance of getting Durant and makes us less attractive. I could have lived with Butler, but Ibaka? I'm just baffled. Sure hope Durant has somehow promised he would come to Orlando. Damn you Henny! We are giving up too soon on Victor. I'm willing to bet Dipo puts up All-Star numbers. He might not make the team in the West, but he breaks out, this season. Watch Fournier regress and Ibaka to slow down more.

They also meant relevant players with equal or better contributions than what we currently have. A, B, and C are reasonable. D is what last two year Otis would have done. Plan E and Rob should just resign. We are not trying to drive fans away I'm pretty sure. The best we could ask for is Horford and Batum. Pull that off and make it to the 2nd round and Rob wins GM of the year. Assuming someone doesn't pair Durant with John Wall or something, or a Durant/Conley pairing on a playoff team. Durant Horford Batum Conley Whiteside Howard (at a huge discount) If we don't get one of those we failed, unless they all stay put. Barnes alone would be failure and I'm quite sure he is not on the list for Rob. Hezonja is more likely to become a stud than Barnes. He has nothing about him that says Tracy McGrady like results. TMac was clearly an All-Star in the making back when we got him. Golden State is full of stars, so you can attribute his decent performances to the lack of attention he gets from defenses, but he is not impressive. He is Marvin Williams and always will be. I am taking the constantly improving Fournier who we already know and love, who wants to be here, and who I believe the front office loves just the same. Rob was insistent on getting him when he traded for him and there is no reason for him to unload a guy who has done nothing but improve. If you add Batum, Fournier would flourish even more, and consider the fact that we see Mario as a two-way player, he would greatly benefit from Batum. The two players Rob wants are Horford and Batum. There is no doubt in my mind. Horford is the number 1 target and Batum is coveted to a lesser extent. We can make the money work for now, maybe pay a little tax, and decide later who stays and goes based on development. I doubt Vucevic will be here much longer. We can replace his scoring if his defense remains such a hinderance. Love it or hate it, Horford is who Rob is convinced we can get. He is the absolute best fit and exactly what is needed. Once we have his commitment, he becomes the bait to lure Batum or possibly Conley.

I agree with this. Dedmon is really improving if you have been paying attention to how he plays. Defense without fouling is the key for him. He is a great fit for us and doesn't have the wear and tear on his body that most have at his age. I expect to see him in the league for 10 more years easily. Let's be honest here. Biyombo is not 23. He is easily the same age, if not older, than Dedmon. A side note (Not aimed at you Mauro): Thank you to the OP for shutting down that stupid alternate Magic logo thread. It was a nice dragon, but far from a logo. We have nothing to do with dragons either. Magic is not a character so the logo need not be either. We have the Wizards so any magician or magic-wielding person doesn't work either. Not to be mean, but logo making is an entirely different skill than most artistic drawing and that thing was far too complex.. Present a logo that more than 5 people think represents the Magic and you might get support. But, until they ask for fan suggestions, the organization would not even look at it. I'd be willing to bet that they get suggestions all the time. Anyone with any graphics know how can create a logo. Do some research about designing logos if you're serious about it, but you have to be opened minded and not so dead set on a dragon. Yes, we have Stuff, but it's an obvious play on "Puff the Magic Dragon" and an old word for describing dunks. It's not meant to be a logo. Look at mascots from the Spurs, Nuggets, Heat, Thunder, and several more, and you'll see that there is not always a connection to the logo or it's vague. Magic is a concept, and our logo should represent that.

That was nice, but I was speaking in general, not so much only when he scores. Offense run through him is usually pretty successful. He often gives up a shot for a better one, and he has gotten better at not forcing offense like several of our other players. When he touches the ball, good things happen. Also Fournier was dreadful in that first half, so Hezonja was probably a good option. Plus, we should be giving him every opportunity we can now that the season is over essentially. It's surprising we haven't been, but that is Skiles for ya.

A normal run in a NBA game fueled by defensive effort. The offense was nothing special. We chipped away and made a small run in the last 3 minutes of the half. Not to mention Detroit responded in the beginning of the 3rd erasing that lead. We made a run that just happened to end at the half. Then they made theirs after the break. +/- over a select portion of a game is not the end all be all stat, especially in a game of runs. According to your numbers, Detroit dominated us through the second half being +11, which is far from what actually happened. If we were +22 and had a 15 point lead, that would be dominant. You're describing something that happens in 80% of NBA games as dominant, and clearly it is not. I would not argue if you only were referring to the defense. Because I see an argument there. And who cares, we lost. That is what matters. The +/- for the game is the end all be all stat (-4). And it's all about differing definitions of dominance. Guess we have a difference of opinion.

A normal run in a NBA game fueled by defensive effort. The offense was nothing special. We chipped away and made a small run in the last 3 minutes of the half. Not to mention Detroit responded in the beginning of the 3rd erasing that lead. We made a run that just happened to end at the half. Then they made theirs after the break. +/- over a select portion of a game is not the end all be all stat, especially in a game of runs. According to your numbers, Detroit dominated us through the second half being +11, which is far from what actually happened. If we were +22 and had a 15 point lead, that would be dominant. You're describing something that happens in 80% of NBA games as dominant, and clearly it is not. I would not argue if you only were referring to the defense. Because I see an argument there. And who cares, we lost. That is what matters. The +/- for the game is the end all be all stat (-4). And it's all about differing definitions of dominance. Guess we have a difference of opinion.

I wouldn't say we have dominated them. If we made our open looks I would agree. Effort and defense are definitely ready for the things the Pistons like to do. If not for some big 3's and our misses, we could have a big lead. I will say minus a couple lapses, our defense was dominant and well prepared.

Effort is keeping us in this game. We can't make anything. These are the games that make you question Fournier's value to us. If he had less of these off nights, he would be a no-brainer at any cost. Shooing threat is what we need and he is capable but disappears many nights. I he shows up we win 80% of those games.

We need to run more plays through Mario. He really can make things happen if we let him.

We just need to go after Conley and Horford, Horford first and convince them to come together. Fournier needs to be signed no matter what. If you're ready to part with him it has to be a sign and trade that includes a shooter/quality big. Unless you sign and trade to get Conley in order to save money. As long as Fournier and Nicholson don't quickly sign offer sheets and wait for us to go after Horford and Conley, we should resign them unless Nicholson gets a huge offer. If they want to be here, they should be. Nicholson and Dedmon should be kept. Along with Smith. Jennings can stay at a reasonable price if Conley isn't interested. Vucevic won't want to be here as a backup because he is a starter in this league, and Gordon is going to have to start at the 4. Assuming we keep Fournier and land Horford, Vucevic becomes expendable and will be gone before the deadline. And we need to extend Victor sooner than later. Lineup: C Horford/Vucevic (until traded)/Dedmon PF Gordon/Nicholson/Smith SF Fournier/Hezonja/Marble (or draft pick) or Hezonja/???/Marble (or draft pick) SG Oladipo/Hezonja/??? (or Watson or draft pick) PG Conley/Payton/Watson ??? denotes player traded for Vucevic The other option is Horford and Batum (possibly Parsons). I think with Fournier and Hezonja though, any SF's coming in will be on the bench. Hezonja needs minutes like Gordon is getting. Forget Harrison Barnes, Mario will be better than Barnes will ever be. Hezonja is also cheaper and signing Barnes just stunts his growth. Batum is proven though and shines already. In this scenario, Fournier would likely be let go, likely by sign and trade for similar value (Vucevic would likely be going also, we would be looking for PG, a 3-point specialist, and backup C in those trades, and possibly expiring contracts). Mario would then split time between SG and SF in a 6th man role. If Fournier/Vucevic trades net us a starting PF, Gordon or Hezonja become 6th man depending on matchups. If we get a starting PG, Payton goes to bench. But, saving money to resign our own (Oladipo for one) becomes most important and most likely. Lineup: C Horford/**Vucevic/??? (or draft pick)/*Dedmon/*Smith PF Gordon/*Nicholson/*Smith/??? (or draft pick) SF Batum/**Fournier/Hezonja/??? (or Marble or draft pick) SG Oladipo/Hezonja/??? (or draft pick) PG Payton/??? (or draft pick) /Watson (or draft pick) ??? denotes players traded for Vucevic and Fournier *If re-signed **Unless traded in summer or is temporary,unless traded before deadline Either way , Vucevic would be gone before the trading deadline unless Horford took the secondary role. Vucevic has no reason to be on the bench, and he should not be expected to. He would play nice, but would bolt at the first opportunity. Fournier, Jennings, or Ilyasova could be re-signed too. If we don't get Horford then it's anybody's guess. There are lots of questions with bench except for Hezonja, but both lineups fix our biggest holes. We also become very strong defensively. Shooting and quality backup PF would be things to address via trades or the draft if we lose Fournier and/or Vucevic. Due to uncertainty with Fournier and Vucevic, lineups could change vastly. If the ??? players are not significant downgrades, we are surely a playoff team either way. The first suggested duo makes us top 4 in the East right away. If Vucevic or Horford is willing to sacrifice, we would be extremely dangerous.

Vooch missing a critical free throw seems to be a trend in many of our close losses. Also thought Gordon was in good position to knock away Parker's shot, but he didn't jump. This just shows why we need a better defensive big man. An Al Horford would have eaten that shot up. Fourier should have seen the defender waiting and dumped the ball off to Dipo for the winning shot. But, if Vooch made two, we could have run the clock down and forced OT. This game ended the way all games do with Skiles. Questionable substitutions very late in the game and losing control while the subs get back in the flow. It's a little thing, but it changes the game. And a lack of interior defense costing us in the end. Plus, weak plays or poorly executed plays when we have to score. Teams pack everyone in the lane so they don't give up the drive and we run plays where our guys run right into the defense.

We have to decide not to allow 3's to beat us. Skiles needs to adjust to his players a bit and let's give them contested 2's for a change. Quit double teaming every possession and play it straight up. Sure we will give up some, but leads won't explode so quickly. Especially during scoring runs by opponents. 3's fuel offense in today's NBA, even Skiles knows this because they have our team making an effort to shoot more ourselves. Coach needs to realize that maybe he expects individuals to do too much on every play defensively. Even the best defensive teams play it straight up often because teams want to shoot 3's. Teams do this to us alot. Let Vucevic or whoever do what they want and play him straight up. Even the best offensive players miss half of their shots. Surprise them with double teams, because right now they just wait for it and swing the ball cross court to a wide open shooter or pass it around until they find a shooter that the help defender doesn't get back to in time, if at all. Yes, giving up 2's hurts, but a barrage of 3's is demoralizing. We are extremely predictable. We have smart players even though Skiles likes to say that they don't understand what to do. Maybe trust them a bit more and try something else. I think that if Skiles cannot be more creative, he should be let go after the season. He is unreasonable, especially to young guys, who have not yet learned how to conserve the energy for such demands defensively. It's not the mindset of today's players, and takes a long time to learn and most never learn it. Good veterans know when to turn it on and how to have energy to sustain a semblance of good team defense the rest of the game. In the 80's and 90's you could play aggressive and push people around on D so that mindset was common. If you so much as play any defense, every bump or tap is a foul. Very quickly you get in trouble foul wise and you have to sit and break your game rhythm. Veterans have an easier time overcoming this than young guys like we have. Plus add that to the fact that Skiles has such a short leash which compounds the problem. It's easy to see why our guys are so slow to improve. We went the polar opposite of JV, when we need a teacher who is not so heavy handed. SVG was that guy, but we fired him for no real reason. Skiles is not the guy. We have made one player better, Fourier, but asked the players we are building on to remodel their games entirely. It is glaringly obvious in the way Payton has regressed and how Tobias was dragged down. To an extent, it has not helped Vic and Vuc because they have just now begun to adapt to Skiles. But those growing pains were a root cause of the ungodly horrific January swoon. If we don't adjust, we will lose. Yes, players must execute, but the coaches are definitely not without fault. Another note. Games like this show how far AG still has to go, as this happens almost every other game with him. Hezonja has hit a wall. It's just too much for him to give the needed energy to be the 2-way player he is expected to become. This summer he has got to be stronger and in much better condition. He should not have this much trouble making open shots with great form. As young as AG, Mario, and our team is, they do not have unlimited energy no matter what coach thinks. Players get tired.

I didn't say we'd be a major threat. I said HE would be a major threat. We need some player upgrades, and our current players to become consistent and play to their potential (or at least take big steps in that direction.) We also need help with the mental aspect, and our coach may have the right ideas, but he needs to do better at getting players to execute them all the time. Problem is that Skiles is not great at teaching it seems. He is too hard headed and still needs to adjust to a different league than the one he played in. It's not easy when a coach expects you to do things he never could. He got 30 assists when everyone could shoot and actually made their open shots, but never did much else well. I believe our coach is holding us back more than helping because he can't make a decision about his rotations. Either run with veteran role players who will get us nowhere of significance or develop, focus on, and play our young guys. Playoffs are more important for Skiles' and Rob's jobs, but are not more important to building our team than developing our guys. Getting impatient and sacrificing our youth just to get an 8th seed is probably more harmful than good. I don't think we should put all our faith in Skiles. We can't be sure he was responsible for our start. He seems to be trying to change players instead of adapting his systems to fit us, until we find the players that fit his style. Really, Skiles shouldn't be safe either because we haven't improved any more than we normally would improve by simply being one year older or one year more experienced. We started well last year and lost a bunch of close games. But, when Borrego took over and post All-Star weekend, we looked better and Dipo and Payton improved. Guess what two players had to entirely revamp their game to play for Skiles? Also look how those 2 and Harris regressed when Skiles took charge. Only Fournier has benefited from Skiles. Vaughn was not the right coach, but it doesn't look like Skiles is either. But, it seems like we are going to be stuck with him, so I hope that it's growing pains and I am wrong about him.

We cannot dig a hole like that and expect to come back. Hezonja has just got get his shot dialed in and he will be a major threat. How can you miss this much with such perfect form?

Ok maybe I jumped the gun there. That is better by Dedmon. Hope he can just keep it up.

Well, Dedmon was a mistake. This is why he shouldn't play, very low basketball IQ. Not good to use him when behind. Bench failing again .

Well Skiles needs to be ripping these guys apart and needs to get his stuff together too. He also needs to realize that this is the result of over playing guys who would have needed the best games of their lives to beat GS. We are extremely lethargic as a team. But, this has been Skiles MO as a coach. Overplaying key guys until they wear out, throwing in players who have been sitting too long and expecting high level play from them and yanking them before they get some rhythm (making starters play more), putting a short leash and choke chain on rookies, and turning to experience in every situation even with the youth is playing better. Like were in the early 90's NBA. The league has changed and our coach hasn't. This second half will say alot about how badly we want to make the playoffs. If we don't make it close, this is likely the beginning of the end. Lack of effort doesn't look good to free agents either team. Get you butts in gear.

We need Ilyasova out there with better players. Maybe some Jennings and Dipo together. Maybe Hezonja and Gordon together. Payton facilitating for second unit. We have gone away from what works and we look horrid. Hell, lets see Nicholson and Dedmon because nobody is playing.

We look tired tonight. The starters being tired is on Skiles , but what excuse does the bench have?

Can someone please tell Skiles to mix his lineups around? I mean why are there no starters out their? Should always have at least 1. He is not putting good lineups out there at all.