New Guy

It doesnt seem like we're on the top of Sheed's list. And by spending the full MLE on this type of player would mean a bunch of Jeremy Richardson's on our bench. ha. Maybe not that bad but, it wouldnt be too pretty. That's why he is saying we'd split the MLE instead of using it on say, Bass. Use the MLE to get two decent FAs opposed to one good one. And then fill out the rosters with some true scrubs.

Gortat is gone for sure. $4 million? He'll get the full MLE. The Hornets, Rockets, Kings, and maybe even the Knicks would give him that.

quote: Originally posted by ball junkie:How about this little nugget from the article: quote: Instead, Lewis will now likely stay at power forward and either Mickael Pietrus or J.J. Redick will start alongside of Carter on the wings. J.J. Redick may be starting w/ Vince at small forward...interesting... ughhhh. What a terrible idea.

They can renounce Koponen's rights for an additional $1.7 million. They dont need to do a sign and trade.

I want him back as well but, it's very doubtful. Especially since we're already at the luxury tax just about with several roster spots to fill. He'll be a Raptor or Blazer soon enough.

Nothing is settled on Marion yet. They're going to have to make a choice, though. Between him and Hedo and it seems like they're leaning toward Hedo.

They dont plan on bring any of the three back and it's not like any of them are even that good. Graham and Parker are backups on most teams and Marion is an ever declining player. They have plenty of cash available. Somewhere between $13-14 million. PG Calderon SG Derozan SF Turkoglu PF Bosh C Bargnani That would be their lineup.

Toronto is well under the cap...you're wrong. They cut $26 million in three players. They were $12 million over last season.

quote: Originally posted by MagicFanBen: quote: Originally posted by New Guy:Whoever said they cant sign Hedo without a sign and trade is incorrect. With Marion, Graham, and Parker's expiring contracts. They have more than enough money. But giving up those three guys is the ONLY way they can sign Turk outright. They dont need or want any of the three. Hedo and Marion are both SFs on their team. Graham would be a bench player and w/ Derozan there is no need for a 33 year old Parker.

Whoever said they cant sign Hedo without a sign and trade is incorrect. With Marion, Graham, and Parker's expiring contracts. They have more than enough money.

Well we know that message wont be received. It is the WNBA after all. I doubt Hedo is among the hundreds watching at home.

quote: Originally posted by Vellassco: quote: Originally posted by New Guy:They would nearly have enough just w/ Marion's contract expiring. And they have several expiring so, they have plenty of cash to sign Hedo. A last ditch effort to keep Bosh, perhaps? They'd have a pretty solid team even though, Bargnani is still playing out of position at center. PG Calderon SG Derozan SF Turkoglu PF Bosh C Bargnani I still think he lands in Portland but, he'll be playing for one of them, most likely. New Guy, any idea who is gonna be LMA's back up at Blazers next year? No idea. They have none on their roster right now, I believe. They gave Frye his walking papers and Randolph/Ruffin are both terrible and FAs. They'll have to pick up a body. It is nice to have Oden and Przy, though. Gives them some flexibility, atleast. But they'll still need a PF. Even with shaky depth at the 4, if they can land Hedo and Andre Miller...that is a very scary team.

quote: Originally posted by New Guy: quote: Originally posted by Miller4Prez64: quote: Originally posted by New Guy:Well if we really do split the MLE, prepare yourselves for some marginal talent. Not Wallace or Bass. I think we pursue Bass hard. If we don't land him we split the MLE between a cheaper PF (Wilcox?) and someone else. Basically, if they dont use the full MLE on a Bass or Wallace...Pietrus will be starting. You wont find a really good PF with a portion of the MLE. Sure you could look at Wilcox (maybe) or a Channing Frye, or a Soloman Jones. But none of which are all that great. By putting the word out there that we wanted Bass or Sheed...Otis was saying we want a starting PF. Now, the plans may change if he cant land one of those two...i dont see any of the before mentioned guys starting instead of Pietrus. So, i think Otis wants to go conventional but, we may not be able to do so.

quote: Originally posted by Miller4Prez64: quote: Originally posted by New Guy:Well if we really do split the MLE, prepare yourselves for some marginal talent. Not Wallace or Bass. I think we pursue Bass hard. If we don't land him we split the MLE between a cheaper PF (Wilcox?) and someone else. Basically, if they dont use the full MLE on a Bass or Wallace...Pietrus will be starting. You wont find a really good PF with a portion of the MLE. Sure you could look at Wilcox (maybe) or a Channing Frye, or a Soloman Jones. But none of which are all that great. By putting the word out there that we wanted Bass or Sheed...Otis was saying we want a starting PF. Now, the plans may change if he cant land one...i dont see any of the before mentioned guys starting instead of Pietrus. So, i think Otis wants to go conventional but, we may not be able to do so.

Well if we really do split the MLE, prepare yourselves for some marginal talent. Not Wallace or Bass.

They would nearly have enough just w/ Marion's contract expiring. And they have several expiring so, they have plenty of cash to sign Hedo. A last ditch effort to keep Bosh, perhaps? They'd have a pretty solid team even though, Bargnani is still playing out of position at center. PG Calderon SG Derozan SF Turkoglu PF Bosh C Bargnani I still think he lands in Portland but, he'll be playing for one of them, most likely.

Wallace wouldnt sign to back anyone up. If he's signs here, he's starting. He's not exactly a team first guy. He wants to get his in terms of money and he wants major minutes. And other teams can supply him with that so, if we told him our intent was to bring him off the bench...well, that just wouldnt fly, imo. If we're even interested, which we are, we're looking at him to be that truer type PF to start next to Howard.

They're real excited to have him aboard, as they should be...but you shouldnt expect a press conference introducing two one year rentals, who were acquired to match salary and clear cap room and a player of Lee's stature. Granted Lee has world's of potential, but it's not really presser worthy. I'm still very upset that we no longer have Lee. It is beyond disappointing, imo. But on the flip side, the Nets should be real fun to watch. I loved Keyon Dooling as well and he really showed his worth last year. Keyon is a stud, that any team would be happy to have. Throw in Terrence Williams, my favorite draft prospect, not the best but, my personal favorite and than Devin Harris and Bropez. You have yourself a fantastic young nucleus. I will omit Yi Jianlian, though because well...he hasnt been too great and the jury is still out. For all we know they may opt to start Battie. But anyway, Courtney can really potentially star there. As he will have a more prominent role in their offense and will be counted on a lot more as an offensive talent. I'm excited for him, but at the same time...very saddened to see him go. He was my favorite player on our roster.

quote: Originally posted by magicfan83:New Guy, have you watched Carter at all since Kidd left New Jersey? Carter's game is not catch and shoot, yeah he's capable of doing so with the best of them. But really, its not even 10% of his game. He penetrates, he dishes, he gets to the line. If Carter is a ball hog (he's not anymore), and dominates the ball, doesn't that in fact mean he can handle the ball? If he doesn't turn the ball over by getting stripped or making bad passes, when he sees the ball so much more often, wouldn't that make him an effective passer/decision maker? Carter averages 3.5 more shot attempts per game than Turkoglu on an absolutely terrible team. His shot attempts will go down playing with Nelson, Lewis, and Howard, instead of Harris, and well that's pretty much it. The point forward is not equivalent to the 1. Scottie Pippen and Grant Hill were the best point forwards in recent memory, no one would consider them playing the 1. Point Forward is still playing the 3, but with added ball handling responsibility. Turk cannot play the 2. He is not quick enough to either drive past nor defend the 2. He can't post up anyone. He can't play the 4. At least he can drive past opposing PFs, but he can neither defend them nor box them out. He is a 3, that's it. I'm not bashing him, he is what he is. Carter has played several YEARS at 3, though yes he has been at the 2 predominantly. You'll probably see him at 3 in spots next year. You won't see Turk playing the 2 or 4 anywhere next year. Trying to predict what is going on in player's minds is a guessing game at best. I'm not going to get into that. We'll see what happens. Management has said they are willing to offer Gortat a contract similar to Battie's. Wallace has made a ton of money, saying he won't take the vet min could be a negotiating tactic. This is an exercise in futility as we will all find out sometime on July 1st. I do live in this crap hole NJ, so I've seen every one of his games. That being said, I do have NBA league pass so I watch every team as much as possible. Really is a thing of beauty. I said becoming more catch and shoot...not is entirely. Carter does not drive nearly as much as you'd like, anymore. Everyone complains about Hedo not pentrating, well prepare yourself....Carter has the same problem. Carter's numbers as in terms of shots, remains constant despite who he plays with. And why are his tunrover margins lower? Because he doesnt handle the ball as much as Turk does, as in dribbling. And he has a shoot first mentality. Hedo turned the ball over plenty of time on arrant passes. Head scratchers, I'd agree at times. The same could be said for some of Rafer's. bleh. As for this 1 argument...come on now. A point forward is essentially a big man playing point guard on offense. Matter of fact that is exactly what it is. And Hedo has seen time at all 4 of these positions while a part of the Magic. If that's not flexibility, I dont know what is. He and Lewis were interchangable. Luckily we still have a guy like Pietrus who can do some of these things but, it's not the same. And lets not even get into Pietrus below average ball handling. lol. He doesnt even keep his head up when he dribbles. Great slasher but, terrible handle and basketball IQ. I love him too, though. He was insane in the playoffs. But back to the point...Hedo can realistically play any of 4 positions to Carters 2. And he doesnt even belong at SF because, he's not always a willing defender so, guarding bigger guys isnt always his cup of tea. Not to mention, he wouldnt be a great rebounder at the 3. As for Gortat/Wallace. Wallace will in no way play for the veteran minimum. Other teams are all ready talking MLE...so, that will probably be his worth. As a Magic fan, I would love Gortat back and give him a little extra time wherever we could. But as a basektball fan, I would also feel like we're holding back a player from being all he can be on another team. I'd still want to keep him, though. But yeah, I thinking the chances are minimal at best. Very small chance, he'll be back. I loved his comments about wanting to play 48 minutes per game. Joking of course but, the guy wants to start. I dont know why he wouldnt jump ship. He thinks he's a star already and he wants to showcase his talents. I'm going to call it a night or well, a morning since it's 7 am. haha. Been up all night. The Dark Knight drew me in again and I couldnt look away. Although we are at opposite ends of the spectrum, good talk and good night. Err...good morning.

I'd probably rather have Bass to be honest. He needs to refine his offensive game a bit, though. But the potential is there. I've always been a fan of his. As for Anderson...he plays like a big SF. Like a Pat Garrity or Troy Murphy. They're looking at Bass and Wallace...very physical players...so, that's the type they want to get the bulk of minutes to compliment Dwight. Anderson is far from that true or truer type PF they are looking for. Now dont get me wrong in regard to Jameer. I know how well he was doing, he was fantastic. But, I'm talking specifically about when Hedo was running things. You'd see completely different types of defenses. With several differet positions coming off to try and guard Hedo. Opening up the floor. Jameer could do a fine job but, in losing Hedo, we're losing one of our best lineups, which was very successful. People seem to think VC will be running a greal deal of PG or something. That's not his game at all. These days he's becoming more spot up shooter than anything. Lots more threes and long jumpers as he has aged.

Hedo Turkoglu played point forward a lot. Vince Carter plays shooting guard for nearly the majority of the game. His turnovers arent as high because, he isn't looking to set up teammates, he's looking to shoot. A lot of Carter's game, is catch and shoot...so you would expect lower turnover numbers. He's not a ball handler like Hedo is. He wont control it as much. He'll get passed to and chuck it up or drive. (not so much, lately) Yeah, he'll get the ball to the open man several times per game but, dont let that confuse you. He's no ballhandler/passer. And yes, VC wants to take about 20+ shots per night whenever he can. He's a shooter/scorer, that's his game, he's always been a ball hog when it comes to shots. Not excatly a bad thing if you can convert, though. He did have 23 games last year of 20+ shots (this is even down in comparison to years past) in comparison to Turkoglu's 4. That's what Carter does, dominates the ball. To say all Hedo can do is play the 3 is a bogus statment. You just said he could play the point forward position which is equilvilant to the 1. And he can fit right in at the 2 and 4 as well. This is a player that gives us more flexibility, that is fact. And while, I'll agree he played a lackadaisical defense often...lets not pretend that VC is some shut down defender. He only plays when he wants to and has never been known as a defensive stopper. He'll play hard some times and others, he'll take drives off. Hedo and Vince are too very different players...it's not like they cancel eachother out. Hedo couldnt do some of things Vince could do and vice versa. I agree that we better **** well be better on the offensive glass, but so what? So is every team with a coventional front court. This doesnt necessarily equate to wins. It will sure be nice but, it doesnt mean we'll be any better in the long run next year. Also...as for Gortat. He would have to be pretty stupid to return. I mean I love the guy but, there are teams out there that are willing to start him and give him major minutes right now. We on the other hand couldnt increase his minutes all that much and his play w/ Dwight at the same time, is atrocious. They're both centers with no jump shots. They cant compliment eachother on the offensive end. Gortat has an inflated self worth anyway, he thinks he's a star and is ready to show the world. I wish him the best. And from a salary cap stand point. Retaining him looks pretty improbable. The full MLE will be needed to sign Wallace or Bass. You're all kidding yourselves if you think Wallace, who made $13 million last year, would play for the vet mimimum. Especially considering just a few months ago he was looking for $8 million per.

As great a fit Wallace would be in what Otis is trying to do here...he's also a declining player who Pistons fans have been hollering to get rid of for a while now. Yeah, that's not something you hear a whole lot about in all these get Wallace threads. I still think he would do a fine job, personally...as long as his skills havent diminished significantly. While it isnt seen in his production...he's been having to work a lot harder for things that came easy for him just a few years ago. And he's extremely close to calling it a career. In just May he said if he didnt get $8 million this off season, he was going to retire. Now, he's obviously backed off of that because, he'll get the full MLE or a little more elsewhere but still, not really what you want to hear. Just wanted to make note of the fact that Pistons fans didnt even want him anymore and this has been for the last two years. But anyway, of course we could go small. But the same mismatches arent there. 5'11 Nelson running the show in this lineup compared to Hedo, isnt comparable. At times they needed to put a wing on the 6'10 point forward. Taking a lengthier defender out of the picture, essentially. Wont be the case when Nelson is running this. Like it or not...Hedo is a better ball handler/passer than Carter. And when it comes to the Cavs. Our previous lineup matches up a lot better.

quote: Originally posted by magicfan83:There is no hypocrisy in the position that paying Vince is better than paying Hedo. It has less to do with the amount of money and significantly more to do with the length of the contract. I think 99% of the forum would be willing to pay Hedo 10 million for the next two years, but no one wants give him that for the next 5 years. The contract Otis offered for 36 million over 4 years is very fair, and I think most forum members would have accepted that and welcomed him back. Then both Hedo's and Lewis' contract would come off the books at the same time allowing us major cap room to pair someone with Dwight. Hedo declined the offer, then Otis made the move. If Vince fades, he doesn't hamstring us past next year. If Hedo declines, his contract hurts us for 5 years, and may affect our ability to extend Dwight. To the new guy... We'll have plenty of open 3s. Penetration and double teams off of Dwight will still be there as will the open looks on the perimeter. Carter is not easier to guard than Hedo, Turk often gets smaller players on him and is both unwilling and unable to post them up, and needs the pick to get a step on his defender. Carter averages nearly as many assists as Hedo does, can run the pick and roll, and is certainly better in isolations. If you want to argue the fact that Carter dominates the ball, what do you think Hedo does? Sure, this trade alone doesn't make us better, we have 8 guys on the roster. What this trade does is make us more flexible. We certainly need to wait until free agency plays out and the roster is complete before we judge if our team is better or not. I'd put money on significant improvement. I agree that Vince is a better player but, no they wont be used exactly the same way...and dont get too caught up in Carter's assist numbers. While consistant, he's not a great passer, worse than Hedo in this regard. And he cannot run an offense like Hedo. He dominates the ball in the fact that he wants to shoot it 20+ times. To say Hedo did that is a fallacy. Also, dont bash Hedo too much for his lack of driving because, at Carter's older age...he has resorted to chucking up lots of threes and jumpers as well. So, you'll have to get used to that. To say this makes us more flexible is a fallacy. Carter is a 2 guard, through and through. Hedo could play the 1-4 pretty effectively, the 4 to a much lesser extent. And you also lose Courtney's ability to cover positions 1-3. And that isnt an easy thing to replace. Defense...Carter is better when he wants to be, when he isnt taking plays off or giving too much cushion. Now dont get me wrong...I like Carter but, this seems like a one sided argument in all these Carter threads and people are failing to recognize what we just lost in a player or two. Going conventional could change a great deal more than you guys think. We'll be playing a different brand of basketball next year. To what extent, I couldnt tell you but, expect more half court with a true PF. Expect more slower pacing at times and less pushing of the ball. More formulaic offenses instead of free flowing. Playing into the conventions of the league. Maybe even a little triangle offense. Now who knows, right? This could end up being a good thing but, it could also end up hurting us as well.

It's not better because, you'd have zero bench. No one. Zip. And Pietrus is majorly foul prone. That would mean many games with many minutes for Redick. Yup.

quote: Originally posted by Kramer: quote: Originally posted by New Guy: quote: Originally posted by Kramer: quote: Originally posted by New Guy: quote: Originally posted by Kramer: quote: Originally posted by New Guy: quote: Originally posted by Kramer: quote: Originally posted by Da_Coach: quote: Originally posted by New Guy:Havent read everything here but, I dont see a problem w/ Cavs fans being happy about it to a point. Hedo and Rashard were matchup nightmares. With us going conventional...that for sure gives them a better chance to win. You completely change what makes us so dangerous in the first place and you may become suceptible to what makes the Cavs so good. And I'd agree that it would be easier for West, a great defender, to guard VC instead of Hedo. Hedo towers over West. And one of West's strengths is shutting down the VC esque guard. Asking West to guard a 6'10 SF was a little much. This is completely different. Yeah, it's fine to be excited to have Carter and all but, there is also a chance this may not work. This brings us down to everyone elses level from a conventional lineup standup point. Still extremely tealnted but, we were so dangerous because of the matchups we had, we dont have those anymore. We'll have your standard PG, SG, SF, PF, C lineup and that plays into the Cavs hand. We had their number and talented or not, that may not be the case anymore. The C's were more talented but, the Cavs matchup well against them. And now they'll matchup a little bit better against us. Essentially, Otis is building to beat L.A.! but, changing our dynamic could certainly be dangerous. Just ask the Pistons. This team was in the Finals...a complete make over wasnt need but, by going conventional w/ potentially a true PF is just that. My points exactly, we didn't need to blow up our team, we were held back by SVG's mismanagement of egos not a lack of the proper personnel. Rafer and battie ok, but definately not turk, lee and probably gortat. More conventional, is easier to deal with. Lets hope this experiment works out. Do you know why things become conventional? Because they work! The experiment was the two small forward tandem and while it was pretty successful, it still wouldn't stand much of a chance against a healthy Spurs or Lakers squad. It wasn't pretty successful...it was very successful. A few things go our way and maybe we win it all. It could have been 2-2 just as easily as it went to 3-1. We blew that. Were we fighting a bit of an uphill battle at times? Yes, but adding a true PF via FA in 2010 as a bench player certainly could have eased the pain of the Gasol mismatch. Which was too much to overcome as times. I def. think Otis gave up on something special too early. Teams are beginning to really like that 2 SFs style as well and are beginning to emulate it. OKC, an up and coming team, does the same w/ Durant and Green. And I'd expect after the year we just had running with that type of lineup that it will continue to grow in popularity, in time. Otis seems poised to build to beat the Lakers but in turn, that could be a problem when you take away what made us so difficult for the Cavs. The Cavs, who will match up much, much better against our conventional lineup. It's a gamble and one that may not pay off. I also think it's premature to do so after the near championship season we just had. I don't like our chances to stretch a series to 6 against a healthy Celtics team. I don't like our chances to make it a 5 game series against a healthy San Antonio now. We just lost to the Lakers in 5. Basically resigning Hedo means that we are stuck with the same core guys who just lost in 5. And your OKC example is an awfully poor one compared to examples I have read in other posts by you. First off OKC was awful last season and Green isn't a small forward, he is a perimeter orientated power forward, maybe a combo. Young from Philly is likely going to become the norm. An atheletic perimeter guy who competes down low and rebounds. Rashard Lewis used to be the former and never was or will be the latter Jeff Green's best postion is by far SF. And I wasnt talking about how good they were...I was making the point that teams like the idea of going with such a lineup. That team is too green to be any good right now. And will continue to struggle anyway until Westbrook could get over his turnover woes and shoot at a better clip. But the future is mighty bright...especially with their additions of Harden and Mullens. The perfect draft for them. But anyway...Nelson wasn't playing anything like himself. He was awful and didnt even beling on the court...it was a bad idea from the get go. And a tough PF off the bench to play extended minutes on Gasol could have done wonders...assuming he could slow him of course. But still. We made it to the finals much earlier than expected, you could only expect the team to get better. And seriously, same starting 5 for us or not. Nelson's healthy, Lee's getting better, and Howard's getting better. It could be a whole new ball game. Teams do get better without adding major pieces you know or changing everything. It does happen. And with such a young team, it's expected. That whole Durant-Green wing combo failed miserably. I'd like some evidence that he is, right now, anywhere near as effective at the three as he is at the four They failed miserably? They are a fantastic duo. One that they're building the team around. The team wasthe youngest in the league (I think), what do you expect from them record wise? come on. Those two work off eachother fantastically. And Green is an ever improving player, who's three ball has become a great strength of his. As for Green, the SF. It's his first position. He also started off their in OKC initially, as they tried to work Durant in at SG. A failed experiment because, of Durant's awkward size and body for the 2. He couldnt guard smaller guards at all. Hence why, they went to a Magic esque style of play, with Green moving to the 4. And as for those two players...it has worked out beautifully. The same cant be said for the rest of the team, though. But of course, success will take time but, it will come. They're two of the most promising young players in the game. Wait so you disagree with me in the first chunk and then explain why I was right in the second. Sorry for my time saving typing but to a lot of people "wings" are shooting guards and small forwards. A power forward and center are usually called "bigs" and point guards are usually called just that. And granted Kevin Durant struggled because he is just the wrong size to play shooting guard but as I recal Jeff Green was attrocious while that experiment was going on. Some of that could be attributed to Durant being out of position but at some point if your a better 3 than 4, you can show some signs of it The team was bad, this is true but, those two did anything but fail, is what I was saying. They werent the reason why the team was so bad. And Green is a SF on any conventional roster his game is best suited to play SF...but, he does a fine job working the 4 on OKC. And why would you talk about them as a wing combo (as in SG/SF) to begin our conversation then? Considering they play SF and PF? That doesnt make any sense because, I was comparing there set up as SF/SF at SF/PF, just like us.