2022 Off-season Thread

[CTMagicUK 1,477]

1 hour ago, All Eyes On Me said:

I just don’t agree with the “it’s not the right time” mentality. We have assets now, mainly they’re assets because they’re still unknowns and on their rookie deals. Guys like, Cole, Suggs, RJ, Chuma have shown some small flashes that they could be something, but our development team being able to develop them all in to something? And still developing Paolo and Franz who have shown they’ve got the most potential.. That’s not realistic with how many prospects we have. Superstar scoring guards like Donovan Mitchell, who by the way is only 25 years old, don’t become available like this very often. If we wait now because it’s not the right time and 90% of our prospects are busts we wind up right back into diving in on another decade of rebuild.

I think it depends how highly you view the ceilings of Franz and Paolo. If you think 3 years from now they'll both be all stars why trade a load of assets right now for a player who could leave before they reach their potential? Furthermore you're using assets now to get better now when you have virtually zero chance of a championship. Another season in the lottery (even if we improve and win 30+ games) grabs us more assets and we still have cap space and picks and players heading into next summer with a firmer idea of what our future looks like. It's a timeline issue for me. (And even if you think Paolo is that good that he's going to be an instant impact guy and like immediately be the guy to make a playoff push with us why bring in a score first guard to take the ball out of his hands? Why not push the outer limits of how good he is as a rookie to give us a better idea of how to help him win moving forward?)

I agree in principle about the assets of Cole/Suggs etc being on a theoretical ticking clock but that only really matters if they don't develop. If they become better players they might have more value (it's a bit of a sliding scale though because they also are closer to being paid). 

Also, it required 43 wins to make the play-in in the East last season. It's not even guaranteed we'd make the playoffs if we traded for Mitchell and a non playoff season with only 2 more years of him under contract would be a real problem. 

Edit: also if you think Franz and Paolo are that good then you don't have to worry about diving in to another rebuild and you're virtually guaranteed 8 years of those guys playing together to push your chips in for a championship. On the inverse side, if you don't think Franz and Paolo are that good then you have no hope of ever winning a championship with Donovan anyway so why bother? 

[All Eyes On Me 1,204]

40 minutes ago, CTMagicUK said:

I think it depends how highly you view the ceilings of Franz and Paolo. If you think 3 years from now they'll both be all stars why trade a load of assets right now for a player who could leave before they reach their potential? Furthermore you're using assets now to get better now when you have virtually zero chance of a championship. Another season in the lottery (even if we improve and win 30+ games) grabs us more assets and we still have cap space and picks and players heading into next summer with a firmer idea of what our future looks like. It's a timeline issue for me. (And even if you think Paolo is that good that he's going to be an instant impact guy and like immediately be the guy to make a playoff push with us why bring in a score first guard to take the ball out of his hands? Why not push the outer limits of how good he is as a rookie to give us a better idea of how to help him win moving forward?)

I agree in principle about the assets of Cole/Suggs etc being on a theoretical ticking clock but that only really matters if they don't develop. If they become better players they might have more value (it's a bit of a sliding scale though because they also are closer to being paid). 

Also, it required 43 wins to make the play-in in the East last season. It's not even guaranteed we'd make the playoffs if we traded for Mitchell and a non playoff season with only 2 more years of him under contract would be a real problem. 

Edit: also if you think Franz and Paolo are that good then you don't have to worry about diving in to another rebuild and you're virtually guaranteed 8 years of those guys playing together to push your chips in for a championship. On the inverse side, if you don't think Franz and Paolo are that good then you have no hope of ever winning a championship with Donovan anyway so why bother? 

I understand and agree with your timeline concerns, but I also think that buyers in the NBA, especially small market ones, don’t get too much of a say in the timing of things, and I’m a believer in taking risks when certain assets become available. Like, if we were talking Kyrie or Durant, I’m against it because it absolutely tanks long term value, but Mitchell doesn’t in my opinion.

All that being said, I do recognize what you’re saying and we’ve made moves in our history when the times been right to help our rookie picks once we realized they were stars (Shard in 2007, Horace in 94), but it just feels like a different landscape in the league now.

 

[Luke_FfS 248]

3 hours ago, All Eyes On Me said:

I just don’t agree with the “it’s not the right time” mentality. We have assets now, mainly they’re assets because they’re still unknowns and on their rookie deals. Guys like, Cole, Suggs, RJ, Chuma have shown some small flashes that they could be something, but our development team being able to develop them all in to something? And still developing Paolo and Franz who have shown they’ve got the most potential.. That’s not realistic with how many prospects we have. Superstar scoring guards like Donovan Mitchell, who by the way is only 25 years old, don’t become available like this very often. If we wait now because it’s not the right time and 90% of our prospects are busts we wind up right back into diving in on another decade of rebuild.

I've read a lot of good opinions (kudos to all) about the DM situation, and I'm still torn between the two sides.

About the "it's not the right time", I agree it's always time if you find the right fit. Probably the FO doesn't see DM as a player worth to build on, and that's understandable. Problem is... we had an average borderline playoff team for a few years, and they didn't a move either. When will be the right time for them?

[CTMagicUK 1,477]

2 hours ago, All Eyes On Me said:

I understand and agree with your timeline concerns, but I also think that buyers in the NBA, especially small market ones, don’t get too much of a say in the timing of things, and I’m a believer in taking risks when certain assets become available. Like, if we were talking Kyrie or Durant, I’m against it because it absolutely tanks long term value, but Mitchell doesn’t in my opinion.

All that being said, I do recognize what you’re saying and we’ve made moves in our history when the times been right to help our rookie picks once we realized they were stars (Shard in 2007, Horace in 94), but it just feels like a different landscape in the league now.

 

Yea and to be fair I don't think acquiring Donovan is like a destroyer of the timeline like your example of KD. It'd just require a lot of creativity to thread the needle between competing immediately without sacrificing the future that Franz and Paolo afford us. 

It's an interesting debate. Personally I think other opportunities could come along to acquire a scoring guard (Jordan Poole could very well be a real option next summer if he isn't traded this season and while he's not as good as DM he'd also cost a lot less asset wise and probably salary wise and provide like 85% of what DM does). 

[VoiceofReason 38]

7 hours ago, All Eyes On Me said:

I just don’t agree with the “it’s not the right time” mentality. We have assets now, mainly they’re assets because they’re still unknowns and on their rookie deals. Guys like, Cole, Suggs, RJ, Chuma have shown some small flashes that they could be something, but our development team being able to develop them all in to something? And still developing Paolo and Franz who have shown they’ve got the most potential.. That’s not realistic with how many prospects we have. Superstar scoring guards like Donovan Mitchell, who by the way is only 25 years old, don’t become available like this very often. If we wait now because it’s not the right time and 90% of our prospects are busts we wind up right back into diving in on another decade of rebuild.

I  just don't view DM as a superstar. He is who he is at this point, an all-star and great scorer but he has zero impact on the rest of the game.  To me a superstar can impact the game even when his shot isn't falling.  Some people actually view him as a second option and perhaps that's why he's struggled to carry his team deep in the playoffs.  It would be nice to have his offense however not for his "superstar" asking price with his defensive liabilities.  We've just moved on from the Vuch and Fournier matador defense, why do we want to go back? Perhaps a real superstar will come available and we'll have the assets to pounce.

[TreyMachine 395]

11 minutes ago, VoiceofReason said:

I  just don't view DM as a superstar. He is who he is at this point. He's an all-star and great scorer but has zero impact on the rest of the game.  To me a superstar can impact the game even when his shot isn't falling.  Some people actually view him as a second option and perhaps that's why he's struggled to carry his team deep in the playoffs.  It would be nice to have his offense however not for his "superstar" asking price with his defensive liabilities.  We've just moved on from the Vuch and Fournier matador defense, why do we want to go back? Perhaps a real superstar will come available  and we'll have the assets to pounce.

You’re relatively new here, but I find myself agreeing most of the time with you, VOR. We put too much emphasis on PPG in lieu of anything else. Ben Gordan was a great scorer in his hay day, but we all know he wasn’t going to carry a team as he was both a defensive liability and didn’t create for others / make the game easier for others. Hell, I even think the same issue was the case with Carmelo (iso scorer but not a great defender or passer). 

You build your team around guys who can score, pass, AND play defense. You can live with guys having 2 of 3, but it’s hard to win at the highest level if they only have 1 of 3 and they are your team’s main focal point. 

[VoiceofReason 38]

30 minutes ago, TreyMachine said:

You’re relatively new here, but I find myself agreeing most of the time with you, VOR. We put too much emphasis on PPG in lieu of anything else. Ben Gordan was a great scorer in his hay day, but we all know he wasn’t going to carry a team as he was both a defensive liability and didn’t create for others / make the game easier for others. Hell, I even think the same issue was the case with Carmelo (iso scorer but not a great defender or passer). 

You build your team around guys who can score, pass, AND play defense. You can live with guys having 2 of 3, but it’s hard to win at the highest level if they only have 1 of 3 and they are your team’s main focal point. 

Thanks TreyMachine!  I've actually been on these message boards for a LONG time.  Way before the Jareth and Chicken finger basket days. When the boards moved over here I lost my original username and didn't really post much until recently. I live in the Orlando suburbs and was a 10 year ticket holder before getting burned out the strike shortened season. It may be time to renew!

I'm sure we may not see eye to eye on everything, however I really enjoy other peoples opinions and I'm thankful we have so many members who bring incredible knowledge and expertise to these boards.

It's amazing you brought up Ben Gordon as I was going to use him as an example, I actually looked up his stats but didn't mention him in my post.  I probably should have as his shooting percentages were similar on less usage because he wasn't the undisputed option in Chicago. You are absolutely correct though, Ben Gordon brought nothing besides scoring to the table.

I would also make the stretch that Evan Fournier is DM lite.  What did we get for him....2 second round picks?  We should mortgage the future for DM - a rich man's Evan Fournier? Respectfully, that's a hard pass for me.

[ball junkie 277]

On 7/14/2022 at 5:45 PM, ball junkie said:

Don’t know if this has been posted but it’s a super in-depth interview with all things Magic …draft, our personnel, summer league

Quoting my own post …not sure if anybody listened to this but starting at the 5 minute mark …Hammond talking about Isaac, Suggs and Mo Bamba …said if we’re healthy we’ll win a lot more games but he didn’t put a number on it …said any team that beats us next year will have to play extremely hard …said he wasn’t trying to put pressure on Isaac but Jonathan and he both were very encouraged the way his rehab is progressing …saying when he’s on the court what a difference maker he is …lastly, was raving about Mo Bamba’s (a player most guys on this board were ready to dump) skill set and what a great attitude he brings to the team on a daily basis …even saying if the game is on the line and he needs a 3 he wants the ball in MO’s hands 

[fan for too long 2 531]

2 hours ago, ball junkie said:

Quoting my own post …not sure if anybody listened to this but starting at the 5 minute mark …Hammond talking about Isaac, Suggs and Mo Bamba …said if we’re healthy we’ll win a lot more games but he didn’t put a number on it …said any team that beats us next year will have to play extremely hard …said he wasn’t trying to put pressure on Isaac but Jonathan and he both were very encouraged the way his rehab is progressing …saying when he’s on the court what a difference maker he is …lastly, was raving about Mo Bamba’s (a player most guys on this board were ready to dump) skill set and what a great attitude he brings to the team on a daily basis …even saying if the game is on the line and he needs a 3 he wants the ball in MO’s hands 

That last sentence has me questioning hammonds sanity. Seriously 

[TreyMachine 395]

3 hours ago, ball junkie said:

Quoting my own post …not sure if anybody listened to this but starting at the 5 minute mark …Hammond talking about Isaac, Suggs and Mo Bamba …said if we’re healthy we’ll win a lot more games but he didn’t put a number on it …said any team that beats us next year will have to play extremely hard …said he wasn’t trying to put pressure on Isaac but Jonathan and he both were very encouraged the way his rehab is progressing …saying when he’s on the court what a difference maker he is …lastly, was raving about Mo Bamba’s (a player most guys on this board were ready to dump) skill set and what a great attitude he brings to the team on a daily basis …even saying if the game is on the line and he needs a 3 he wants the ball in MO’s hands 

I think some parts of this, like the Mo comment, has to be a PR “public vote of confidence” move. Young guys today like to the praised, not called out, and give a lot more effort when you’re publicly encouraging a guy rather than critiquing him on “needing to be better.”

Whether Hammond believes this or not is a different story, but I’ll take at least portions of this at face value. We all have eyes and know Mo Bamba taking a 3 with the game on the line is not the play we’re calling 99 out of 100 times. 

[Jon 30]

33 minutes ago, fan for too long 2 said:

That last sentence has me questioning hammonds sanity. Seriously 

Sounds like a salesman.

[Jay Magic 1,239]

On 7/15/2022 at 12:48 PM, TreyMachine said:

You’re far too optimistic. Hero ball with a streaky shot, limit court vision, and limited defensive prowess (though he gives effort) will not make you an all-star. I think Cole is actually LEAST likely amongst Cole/Suggs/Fultz to become an All-Star, but I’ve been wrong before. 

Cole is going to make a big jump