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CTMagicUK

2020-21 NBA Playoff Discussion Thread

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8 minutes ago, jmmagicfan said:

 

Tobias Harris, Victor Oladipo both got better after they left. But I don't know about the "everyone" part. It does seem like a lot of former Magic players have their best games against us though. 

I've addressed Oladipo in a different comment. 

Tobias Harris was 22 when he left the Magic and now plays in a much more advantageous situation than he did here. I don't think he's had anything other than a standard level of growth since leaving us. Being older, understanding the game better + having better teammates and a better coach to put him in situations to succeed probably accounts for like 90% of his growth. It's not like he's a dramatically different player than he was when he left us. 

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55 minutes ago, All Eyes On Me said:

Well, I think the interesting part about the past decade and the state of our beloved franchise is that I’m not entirely convinced guys like Trae would be where they are now if they wound up in our developmental system. The only player we’ve had show noticeable improvement here over multiple seasons in the past decade is Vooch, and a lot of signs point to that being self motivated more than team oriented. I hate our training staff and our developmental team, and honestly I’m not in love with our GM. Think Weltman got massively overrated for one late, lucky pick he made in Milwaukee. I like the mid season deals and finally blowing it up, but if we stand pat and just draft 5 and 8 I’ll be super disappointed.

Also, hire a damn coach already… 

I think this is harsh all around. 

Portland fired their coach before us and haven't hired a coach. 

Weltman doesn't get any credit for a good pick (he was also part of the FO that drafted Siakam) but takes all the blame for bad picks?

Likewise the organisation gets no credit for developing Vuc but take all the blame for not developing others?

With the draft and player development results don't necessarily correlate with bad processes. I don't understand how you can say you hate the people doing these jobs when you have zero insight into what they're actually doing and can't possibly know whether they're the reason for a lack of development. 

I'm not pretending like this is the best organisation in basketball I just think people are over reacting and that sometimes luck plays a bigger factor than people want to make out. As far as I'm concerned none of the moves Weltman has made since he arrived have been indefensible. 

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5 minutes ago, CTMagicUK said:

I've addressed Oladipo in a different comment. 

Tobias Harris was 22 when he left the Magic and now plays in a much more advantageous situation than he did here. I don't think he's had anything other than a standard level of growth since leaving us. Being older, understanding the game better + having better teammates and a better coach to put him in situations to succeed probably accounts for like 90% of his growth. It's not like he's a dramatically different player than he was when he left us. 

I really think Oladipo's growth had a ton to do with playing/training with Russell Westbrook - which obviously wouldn't have happened anywhere else at the time. I don't really agree with you on Harris, though. I think he grew quite a bit with the Clippers. I actually think he has regressed a little in Philly, but that may just be because he isn't as high on the option list. 

Who can really tell how much is the training/development staff, and how much is the players that they have been given to work with. The old saying that you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink may apply here. No matter how good your training/development staff is, if the players don't have the innate ability and/or the internal drive to get better, there is only so much the staff can do. Having said that, I do have doubts about our staff - it just seems like we've had a lot of injuries, and very little development over the last few years. 

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4 minutes ago, CTMagicUK said:

I think this is harsh all around. 

Portland fired their coach before us and haven't hired a coach. 

Weltman doesn't get any credit for a good pick (he was also part of the FO that drafted Siakam) but takes all the blame for bad picks?

Likewise the organisation gets no credit for developing Vuc but take all the blame for not developing others?

With the draft and player development results don't necessarily correlate with bad processes. I don't understand how you can say you hate the people doing these jobs when you have zero insight into what they're actually doing and can't possibly know whether they're the reason for a lack of development. 

I'm not pretending like this is the best organisation in basketball I just think people are over reacting and that sometimes luck plays a bigger factor than people want to make out. As far as I'm concerned none of the moves Weltman has made since he arrived have been indefensible. 

This is a solid rebuttal. I agree with it. 

I think some fans tend to drift toward pessimism and others drift toward optimism so that will be the way they see the team and the decisions they make. 

In my opinion, I think the current FO has made a lot of good moves to get us to be more athletic (which matches the style of play in the NBA) and out of financial trouble. My one critique would be that we have focused a little too much on defense and need some offensive firepower. I think we held on just a little too long for Fournier and Vuc but Vuc was in the middle of an All-Star run so it was hard to convince yourself to cut ties. 

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4 hours ago, Natesroom said:

I echo this in order OF my grade for those drafts Day of

'20 Cole - B+   Liked Kira Lewis and Nesmith, but gone and Cole is a no brainer at 15
'19 Chuma A-  Obv Wanted a top 2 pick Ja and Zion i knew would be good but oh well - A- for trading Talen
'18 Bamba B-  Thought he would better then this I actually wanted Collin Sexton or SGA at the time if we couldnt get Luka - Did NOT want Trae. Thought 6 was to high to use on MPJ 
'17 Isaac - C+  Wasnt Sure about him didnt scout him much - Wanted DSJ or Tatum.
'16 Not the worst year to trade our pick. Only 5 impact players in the top 20.
'15 Hezonja B at the time - Wanted Porzingas or KAT obv got screwed lottery - Liked Hezonja possibility
'14 Gordon  B at the time - Wanted any of the top 3 before Gordon. Did not want Smart - Wanted Zach Levine at 12 instead of trading up for Payton. Did not watch much film of Arizona.

2020 - B+ -- I think Cole is the energetic spark we need and seems to have a little bit of a clutch gene in him. I'm hoping that is contagious for the rest of the team. The only player drafted relatively close after him that I would be interested in watching is Maxey. Also, not sure about long-term fit alongside Anthony and Fultz...but we also pulled Hampton who was drafted 9 spots after Cole. Overall, solid picks for this draft. 

2019 - A -- I don't think there is anyone else drafted after Chuma who is anywhere close to his ceiling and he already seems to be putting up bigger numbers than the other guys (partly because of how we needed him to play after trading everyone)

2018 - C -- I'm interested to see where this team goes with Bamba now that we have WCJ. Having both #6 + #7 from this draft could be good but they could also stifle each others growth. WCJ seemed to be more offensively efficient last season. Overall, I'm disappointed with Bamba's development but he's been behind an All-Star and now alongside another 3rd year top-10 pick player at the same position. I would be surprised if both Bamba and WCJ are on the team after the deadline this upcoming year. 

2017 - A -- I think this was an excellent draft for us... IFFFF... everyone from this draft can stay healthy. Isaac, when healthy, has a defensive player of the year capabilities, and Fultz, when healthy, can be a dynamic slashing PG with incredible vision. Looking at the picks after Isaac, obviously, Donovan Mitchell would be nice. I don't think Bam Adebayo would have flourished like he has anywhere other than Miami. Before we landed Fultz, I would've really liked to pursue Fox and still this Fox is a stud who is wasting a lot of his prime years in a bad place. But I'm still happy with this draft. 

2016 - F -- This was a horrible trade and I think we got absolutely shafted by another GM who took advantage of Henny not knowing what the crap he was gonna do. Dipo and Sabonis both benefited from this trade and became betters players because of it but still. It would've been nice to at least stay in this trade and get someone like LaVert at #20.

2015 - F -- This was a reach. Looking back at it now, I think the hype around Luka is very similar to the same hype that Hezonja had. "He's so young...killing it overseas...scores with ease..." Hezonja has pretty much been a bust and literally any other pick from #6 (Mudiay) to #16 (Rozier) would have been a better pick. The obvious miss of the draft was Booker at #13. 

2014 - C -- I love Gordon, just wish I could've seen him, Dipo, and Harris play together more. I think that would have eventually become a very fun trio to build around. I think they reached with Payton and Zach LaVine would have been a better pick. Imagine PG - Dipo, SG - LaVine, SF - Harris, PF - Gordon, C - Vucevic? 

 

All in all, I think we are hit and miss with top 10 picks. Other than obvious misses like Booker in 2015. I don't think we've done a bad job...just unfortunate with development and injuries. 

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42 minutes ago, CTMagicUK said:

I think this is harsh all around. 

Portland fired their coach before us and haven't hired a coach. 

Weltman doesn't get any credit for a good pick (he was also part of the FO that drafted Siakam) but takes all the blame for bad picks?

Likewise the organisation gets no credit for developing Vuc but take all the blame for not developing others?

With the draft and player development results don't necessarily correlate with bad processes. I don't understand how you can say you hate the people doing these jobs when you have zero insight into what they're actually doing and can't possibly know whether they're the reason for a lack of development. 

I'm not pretending like this is the best organisation in basketball I just think people are over reacting and that sometimes luck plays a bigger factor than people want to make out. As far as I'm concerned none of the moves Weltman has made since he arrived have been indefensible. 

Maybe I’m just tired. I single out Vooch because he’s literally the only one. I didn’t blame Weltman for any bad picks, there’s a chance we got steals in Chuma and Cole. The lotto luck or lack thereof took a lot out of me, and we’re now staring another long rebuild in the face. Forgive me for voicing what I believe to be valid frustrations for the state of this team since Dwight left.

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The main thing that I am worried about is picking another combo guard for our team. We need more balance for our team. 

PG - Fultz, Anthony, Randle (TW)

SG - Harris, Bacon, Ross, Hampton, MCW, Thornwell (TW)

SF - Ennis, Brazdeikis

PF - Isaac, Porter, Okeke, 

C - Bamba, WCJ, Wagner

I think we desperately need a SF who can score. I'm nervous about reaching on another relatively unknown (Kuminga) but I guess a lot of the draft picks this year are unknown just because of Covid but I've read that Kuminga struggles offensively and had to miss games because of knee soreness. I'm worried this is Isaac 2.0. I like Scottie Barnes, I like Corey Kispert and maybe even Moses Moody and Franz Wagner (Wagner duo!!!) 

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14 minutes ago, TrueBlueDrew said:

2020 - B+ -- I think Cole is the energetic spark we need and seems to have a little bit of a clutch gene in him. I'm hoping that is contagious for the rest of the team. The only player drafted relatively close after him that I would be interested in watching is Maxey. Also, not sure about long-term fit alongside Anthony and Fultz...but we also pulled Hampton who was drafted 9 spots after Cole. Overall, solid picks for this draft. 

2019 - A -- I don't think there is anyone else drafted after Chuma who is anywhere close to his ceiling and he already seems to be putting up bigger numbers than the other guys (partly because of how we needed him to play after trading everyone)

2018 - C -- I'm interested to see where this team goes with Bamba now that we have WCJ. Having both #6 + #7 from this draft could be good but they could also stifle each others growth. WCJ seemed to be more offensively efficient last season. Overall, I'm disappointed with Bamba's development but he's been behind an All-Star and now alongside another 3rd year top-10 pick player at the same position. I would be surprised if both Bamba and WCJ are on the team after the deadline this upcoming year. 

2017 - A -- I think this was an excellent draft for us... IFFFF... everyone from this draft can stay healthy. Isaac, when healthy, has a defensive player of the year capabilities, and Fultz, when healthy, can be a dynamic slashing PG with incredible vision. Looking at the picks after Isaac, obviously, Donovan Mitchell would be nice. I don't think Bam Adebayo would have flourished like he has anywhere other than Miami. Before we landed Fultz, I would've really liked to pursue Fox and still this Fox is a stud who is wasting a lot of his prime years in a bad place. But I'm still happy with this draft. 

2016 - F -- This was a horrible trade and I think we got absolutely shafted by another GM who took advantage of Henny not knowing what the crap he was gonna do. Dipo and Sabonis both benefited from this trade and became betters players because of it but still. It would've been nice to at least stay in this trade and get someone like LaVert at #20.

2015 - F -- This was a reach. Looking back at it now, I think the hype around Luka is very similar to the same hype that Hezonja had. "He's so young...killing it overseas...scores with ease..." Hezonja has pretty much been a bust and literally any other pick from #6 (Mudiay) to #16 (Rozier) would have been a better pick. The obvious miss of the draft was Booker at #13. 

2014 - C -- I love Gordon, just wish I could've seen him, Dipo, and Harris play together more. I think that would have eventually become a very fun trio to build around. I think they reached with Payton and Zach LaVine would have been a better pick. Imagine PG - Dipo, SG - LaVine, SF - Harris, PF - Gordon, C - Vucevic? 

 

All in all, I think we are hit and miss with top 10 picks. Other than obvious misses like Booker in 2015. I don't think we've done a bad job...just unfortunate with development and injuries. 

2020 - Agree - and like the pickup of Hampton too. He was really coming on strong at the end of the season, so anxious to see him with a training camp/more practice with our team under his belt. 

2019 - Agree, though I wish Chuma was a little more forceful/demanding on the offensive end. I really wanted Talen Horton-Tucker and was/still am pissed we practically gave him away, and to the freakin' Lakers of all teams.

2018 - I did think Bamba had the greater potential when we drafted him over WCJ, but I think WCJ has come a lot closer to reaching his potential so far. I think this next season is make or break for Mo. I would not be surprised to see him get moved this year.

2017 - Agree, if Isaac and Fultz can stay healthy, this could turn into one of our best drafts ever. 

2016 - Agree, I really wanted Sabonis, so to see Oladipo and he both go was heartbreaking. 

2015 - I think Hezonja was a shock to not only us, but almost everyone around the league. Everyone expected him to be better/have a higher BBIQ than he did.

2014 - I liked Gordon a lot, and I feel like we never used him correctly. I think he will be better in Denver next year, once they get a better idea of how he fits into their team and has a camp to work with them; but I don't think he will ever be the star we all thought/hoped he could be. The fact they have had difficulty figuring out where/how to use him as well seems to bear that out. 

We also have to remember that this front office are not responsible for the '14, '15, '16 moves. 

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24 minutes ago, All Eyes On Me said:

Maybe I’m just tired. I single out Vooch because he’s literally the only one. I didn’t blame Weltman for any bad picks, there’s a chance we got steals in Chuma and Cole. The lotto luck or lack thereof took a lot out of me, and we’re now staring another long rebuild in the face. Forgive me for voicing what I believe to be valid frustrations for the state of this team since Dwight left.

I'm not sure how much of that last sentence is sarcasm (it's hard to tell in text formats) but I do think you're perfectly valid in feeling frustrated that it's been over 10 years since we won a playoff series. You voiced your frustrations, I tried to balance them out and countered with how I viewed the frustrations you raised. That's what the message board is for. 

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11 minutes ago, CTMagicUK said:

I'm not sure how much of that last sentence is sarcasm (it's hard to tell in text formats) but I do think you're perfectly valid in feeling frustrated that it's been over 10 years since we won a playoff series. You voiced your frustrations, I tried to balance them out and countered with how I viewed the frustrations you raised. That's what the message board is for. 

No sarcasm at all. I appreciate the balanced view. Regardless of what this team does to my mental well-being I’m here for the long haul and will talk myself in to whatever we do. Just wish something would go in our favor, we’ve been beat down long enough.

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6 minutes ago, All Eyes On Me said:

No sarcasm at all. I appreciate the balanced view. Regardless of what this team does to my mental well-being I’m here for the long haul and will talk myself in to whatever we do. Just wish something would go in our favor, we’ve been beat down long enough.

Yea I'm at the point of feeling like we're overdue for some good luck.

Hopefully it starts by hiring the right coach. I think that's where Hennigans rebuild went wrong from the very beginning. None of the coaches he hired were the right men for the job. 

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14 minutes ago, CTMagicUK said:

Yea I'm at the point of feeling like we're overdue for some good luck.

Hopefully it starts by hiring the right coach. I think that's where Hennigans rebuild went wrong from the very beginning. None of the coaches he hired were the right men for the job. 

I still think Alex Martins is a pretty big problem. He’s not involved as much in basketball decisions as he used to be, but I still think he’s too involved. 
 

Really excited to see who we hire at coach and I think it needs to happen soon. They need to be a part of the combine and drafting process or you’re setting them up for failure from the get-go

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