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2020 Official Off-Season Thread

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I see your point but still, I don't really share the same opinion. Which is perfectly fair.

I agree with your observations in the mentioned players (like Hield, McCollum, Harris, Levert) and probably would add Gary Harris and Beal... even though I don't think we would get them (unless he demands, I don't really expect WAS to trade Beal, and especially not for another SE division team; and I don't think Harris would really improve us, in what we are more in need of).

So going to your main point, let's start by identifying who do we have in mind when it is mentioned "players about to breakthrough or with star potential that we can easily afford"?

When I read this, the 1st names that come to my mind are the likes of Culver, Reddish, Hunter, Little, Barret, Simons, Trent Jr., K. Porter Jr, M. Porter Jr., Garland, Keldon Jonhson... Now, I don't believe at all that their teams will just let them go in exchange for some 2nd round picks and fillers or expiring contracts... Honestly, I don't even see most of them being traded for less than AG or Bamba plus 1st round pick(s)... So, I don't think that would be a "cheap" deal for us... To be honest, I think Fultz deal was an exception and we are still waiting to see if he is really going to reach his full potential.

And let's be really optimistic and assume we indeed are able to get some of these young players, I would say that there is almost a 50-50 chance that they will not really blossom into what we were expecting and so what... we are stuck in the same situation... and here we go again...

So, once again, it's not easy to see it through but if it was me, I would really chase other team's and try to "sell the bridge" to reach out a guy, still before his prime, and that we are more assured that would really improve us.

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2 hours ago, JayMac said:

I see your point but still, I don't really share the same opinion. Which is perfectly fair.

I agree with your observations in the mentioned players (like Hield, McCollum, Harris, Levert) and probably would add Gary Harris and Beal... even though I don't think we would get them (unless he demands, I don't really expect WAS to trade Beal, and especially not for another SE division team; and I don't think Harris would really improve us, in what we are more in need of).

So going to your main point, let's start by identifying who do we have in mind when it is mentioned "players about to breakthrough or with star potential that we can easily afford"?

When I read this, the 1st names that come to my mind are the likes of Culver, Reddish, Hunter, Little, Barret, Simons, Trent Jr., K. Porter Jr, M. Porter Jr., Garland, Keldon Jonhson... Now, I don't believe at all that their teams will just let them go in exchange for some 2nd round picks and fillers or expiring contracts... Honestly, I don't even see most of them being traded for less than AG or Bamba plus 1st round pick(s)... So, I don't think that would be a "cheap" deal for us... To be honest, I think Fultz deal was an exception and we are still waiting to see if he is really going to reach his full potential.

And let's be really optimistic and assume we indeed are able to get some of these young players, I would say that there is almost a 50-50 chance that they will not really blossom into what we were expecting and so what... we are stuck in the same situation... and here we go again...

So, once again, it's not easy to see it through but if it was me, I would really chase other team's and try to "sell the bridge" to reach out a guy, still before his prime, and that we are more assured that would really improve us.

Funnily I actually have a different view on Gary Harris. I think his value is pretty low because of his poor numbers stemming from his injuries and a reduction in role. I actually think he's a decent buy low candidate. I'd do Fournier for him and 22 for example. 

It actually wasn't me who said we should be targeting players about to be stars I was more thinking about finding bargain guys who could be high end roleplayers but if we end up trading AG or Vuc i would expect a promising young player in the package (or draft picks to draft our own promising young player). I also think you might be overvaluing some of the names on your list. Like sure I wouldn't expect any team to give up on any of the guys that were high lottery picks but guys like Nassir Little and Anfernee Simons haven't even really proved they'll stick in the league after their rookie deals so it's reasonable to presume we'd be able to acquire them if we wanted and had something their teams wanted to trade for. 

Teams give up on young players all the time. The Fultz trade was an exemption in that you can almost never get a former number 1 overall pick who's barely played an NBA game for very little, but every season teams make trades where they throw in a young guy who they've given up on. The Indiana Pacers got TJ Warren and 3 second round picks for some cash. Weltman has himself made a couple of trades to give us a free hit on a young talent the other team has given up on, they just didn't work out so we've already forgotten them (Jerian Grant and Jarell Martin).

I'd say 50-50 is more than optimistic about the chances young guys develop. But that's ok. If they don't prove they're a contributor, you waive them, if theyre a contributor but not a star you play them and then maybe trade them when the time is right if you can, and if they are a star then you count your lucky stars. That's rebuilding. You just keep taking chances on guys until you hit. 

And to be clear I'm not suggesting we do this as the only and exclusive way to finding a star. We should also be trying to draft one, gathering assets to trade for one and maintaining some sort of flexibility to sign one if we get the (rather unlikely) impression that's a possibility.

The problem with your "selling the bridge" is we just don't have the assets to do that right now. No team with a legitimate young star (Ingram, Brown, Ben Simmons etc) is going to trade someone in their early twenties for a 30 year old center, some draft picks and a DPOY candidate in a wheelchair. Hoping they will seems futile to me.

Don't get me wrong if we somehow swung a trade for someone like that I'd be here eating crow but I prefer to be surprised rather than disappointed.

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48 minutes ago, CTMagicUK said:

Funnily I actually have a different view on Gary Harris. I think his value is pretty low because of his poor numbers stemming from his injuries and a reduction in role. I actually think he's a decent buy low candidate. I'd do Fournier for him and 22 for example. 

It actually wasn't me who said we should be targeting players about to be stars I was more thinking about finding bargain guys who could be high end roleplayers but if we end up trading AG or Vuc i would expect a promising young player in the package (or draft picks to draft our own promising young player). I also think you might be overvaluing some of the names on your list. Like sure I wouldn't expect any team to give up on any of the guys that were high lottery picks but guys like Nassir Little and Anfernee Simons haven't even really proved they'll stick in the league after their rookie deals so it's reasonable to presume we'd be able to acquire them if we wanted and had something their teams wanted to trade for. 

Teams give up on young players all the time. The Fultz trade was an exemption in that you can almost never get a former number 1 overall pick who's barely played an NBA game for very little, but every season teams make trades where they throw in a young guy who they've given up on. The Indiana Pacers got TJ Warren and 3 second round picks for some cash. Weltman has himself made a couple of trades to give us a free hit on a young talent the other team has given up on, they just didn't work out so we've already forgotten them (Jerian Grant and Jarell Martin).

I'd say 50-50 is more than optimistic about the chances young guys develop. But that's ok. If they don't prove they're a contributor, you waive them, if theyre a contributor but not a star you play them and then maybe trade them when the time is right if you can, and if they are a star then you count your lucky stars. That's rebuilding. You just keep taking chances on guys until you hit. 

And to be clear I'm not suggesting we do this as the only and exclusive way to finding a star. We should also be trying to draft one, gathering assets to trade for one and maintaining some sort of flexibility to sign one if we get the (rather unlikely) impression that's a possibility.

The problem with your "selling the bridge" is we just don't have the assets to do that right now. No team with a legitimate young star (Ingram, Brown, Ben Simmons etc) is going to trade someone in their early twenties for a 30 year old center, some draft picks and a DPOY candidate in a wheelchair. Hoping they will seems futile to me.

Don't get me wrong if we somehow swung a trade for someone like that I'd be here eating crow but I prefer to be surprised rather than disappointed.

Sorry, my bad for addressing to you on players "about to be stars".

But honestly, saying that we should go for high-end "role players" makes even less sense to me... "Role players" is not at all what we are missing at the moment and IMO it will not do the change that we need... We need more than that. Either on short-term (we try to deal for a high-impact player, like I am more in-line with) or in the medium to long-term (by trading for draft picks or gambling on unproven young players).

What makes me think of chasing a young player that is "hitting" is that I am impressed with Vuc's performances in these playoffs and I think it makes some sense for us to actually try to make the most out of it. Like you say, he is almost 30 and we will not have Isaac next year, so why not?

And yes, it is quite a long shot to make NOP deal for him but Favours contract is expiring. Hayes is still very raw. Last year, they didn't gave Ingram the extension he was eligible to, so does he has NOP front-office in high regards? So, I mean, who knows...

AG is a bit different due to Isaac's injury, and I wouldn't be surprised if he improves his game next year. But again, if any one comes up with a decent proposal (let's say MIN attempts to get Booker come up dry and so they offer us their 1st pick + Johnson for AG and our pick), honestly I'm in to see Edwards becoming our future SG.

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It all depends on the direction we want to go. One problem we have is our holdovers don’t fit the WeltHam model. DJ and Fournier, for instance, are not good two-way players. If we want to be like Toronto or Milwaukee in our makeup, this roster needs to change. Thus, I’d be fine adding people who are older but fit our plan. Jrue Holiday comes to mind. Toronto didn’t add Lowry until later in his career and he’s been their tone setter.

Now if we think a hard reset is due, I’m down with that, too. I love the upside of Barrett and Culver, for instance, but don’t know if they’re attainable. I’m sure there are other guys like them. All in all, what I do know is we can’t bring back the same roster next year and expect different results. 

 

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I'm cool with either strategy. Even trading Vuc for picks and a bad contract wouldn't be too bad. We could do a 1 year tank while Isaac recovers and then have a lot of top picks to develop. Our own and the ones we acquired via trade

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43 minutes ago, Mauro Pedrosa said:

I'm cool with either strategy. Even trading Vuc for picks and a bad contract wouldn't be too bad. We could do a 1 year tank while Isaac recovers and then have a lot of top picks to develop. Our own and the ones we acquired via trade

+1

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1 hour ago, Mauro Pedrosa said:

I'm cool with either strategy. Even trading Vuc for picks and a bad contract wouldn't be too bad. We could do a 1 year tank while Isaac recovers and then have a lot of top picks to develop. Our own and the ones we acquired via trade

I am definitely intrigued by like a "mini tank" just be bad this year, hopefully get a top pick (Cunningham, Boston or Kuminga) and the year after we've got Isaac back, everyone more developed and a potential future star. 

It's definitely not the only way to go and I wouldn't be disappointed if we don't go that route but it seems like the Isaac injury provides us that opportunity. Isaac was the real ceiling raiser for this team and with him out the season we're looking like battling for the 8th seed again. 

Honestly we might make it into the lottery anyway without any moves since Washington will get Wall back, the Nets will get Kyrie and KD healthy, Chicago are under some pressure to win some games to keep Zach Lavine happy, the Cavs GM I think might be under some pressure to show positive momentum, Atlanta might start pushing towards building a playoff team around Trae. The only other playoff team looking like they could drop out is Indiana if Oladipo is either not healthy or traded but they'd probably have to have a fire sale on guys like Sabonis, Brogdon and Warren for that to happen.

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1 hour ago, Mauro Pedrosa said:

I'm cool with either strategy. Even trading Vuc for picks and a bad contract wouldn't be too bad. We could do a 1 year tank while Isaac recovers and then have a lot of top picks to develop. Our own and the ones we acquired via trade

I do not want bad contracts that screws the cap space that Magic can not sign players in free agency 

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10 minutes ago, CTMagicUK said:

I am definitely intrigued by like a "mini tank" just be bad this year, hopefully get a top pick (Cunningham, Boston or Kuminga) and the year after we've got Isaac back, everyone more developed and a potential future star. 

It's definitely not the only way to go and I wouldn't be disappointed if we don't go that route but it seems like the Isaac injury provides us that opportunity. Isaac was the real ceiling raiser for this team and with him out the season we're looking like battling for the 8th seed again. 

Honestly we might make it into the lottery anyway without any moves since Washington will get Wall back, the Nets will get Kyrie and KD healthy, Chicago are under some pressure to win some games to keep Zach Lavine happy, the Cavs GM I think might be under some pressure to show positive momentum, Atlanta might start pushing towards building a playoff team around Trae. The only other playoff team looking like they could drop out is Indiana if Oladipo is either not healthy or traded but they'd probably have to have a fire sale on guys like Sabonis, Brogdon and Warren for that to happen.

Isn't 2021 supposed to be the "double draft" year, with the high school guys?

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27 minutes ago, Mauro Pedrosa said:

Isn't 2021 supposed to be the "double draft" year, with the high school guys?

No, I'm not sure if that's going to happen any time soon. I remember there was a lot of buzz about it a couple years back but as of yet there's no suggestion high school guys will be coming straight to the NBA as far as I'm aware. 

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