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Fultz4thewin

2019-2020 Official Regular Season Thread

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19 minutes ago, ML6 said:

NBA denied our request for a disabled player exception for Isaac.  Put on the tin foil hats boys.

We need to look at this from a different perspective. Instead asking what the injury is maybe we can figure out what his treatment/recovery is and deduce the injury from that. 

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10 minutes ago, Fultz4thewin said:

We need to look at this from a different perspective. Instead asking what the injury is maybe we can figure out what his treatment/recovery is and deduce the injury from that. 

We know what the injury is, it's the severity we don't know.

Edit: To clarify, I'm not suggesting that my LCL theory is the iron clad truth, although I think it's fairly clear.  But even if you don't believe that, we know he has a posterior lateral corner injury as that was reported by multiple sources.  The reason I think it is so obvious that the LCL would be involved is because that is the major structure of that corner.  I know you won't have access to this full article but you may be able to at least see the title, which implies that an LCL injury is the most common type of posterior lateral corner injury.

https://www.uptodate.com/contents/lateral-collateral-ligament-injury-and-related-posterolateral-corner-injuries-of-the-knee?search=posterior lateral corner&source=search_result&selectedTitle=1~150&usage_type=default&display_rank=1

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49 minutes ago, Fultz4thewin said:

Also to add to this, my entire basis of trust with this front office is built on the idea that they went into last summer and Vucevic's agent came to them with multiple offers from other teams and basically said "Vucevic wants to stay here, he'll take a slight discount because he has a newborn and doesn't want to leave Orlando" and the front office used that as an indicator of future trade value because there was an actual market for Vucevic at his salary figure. So we're able to retain a tradable asset to keep us afloat with the fultz uncertainty and Bamba coming off injury. 

Everything about this front office suggests a well thought out, methodical, patient approach to every single thing they do so I think they've earned that trust. 

I really dont know who would give Vucevic more than what we paid him

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5 minutes ago, ML6 said:

We know what the injury is, it's the severity we don't know.

Well we assume we know what the injury is. It's not like they explicitly stated it. 

But if it is a grade 2 lcl we'll probably see him out of a knee brace around February 12th, right?

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9 minutes ago, Fultz4thewin said:

Well we assume we know what the injury is. It's not like they explicitly stated it. 

But if it is a grade 2 lcl we'll probably see him out of a knee brace around February 12th, right?

Sorry, I edited my post after my initial short comment.  We do know what it is in the sense that it's a posterior lateral corner injury; our assumption is the LCL is involved since it's the major structure there.  But no they did not explicitly state the LCL part, you're right.  Your timeline guess seems reasonable but who knows.  So much of it is based on the progress the medical team is seeing, and the Magic are so cautious with everything they could draw it out.

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9 minutes ago, ML6 said:

Sorry, I edited my post after my initial short comment.  We do know what it is in the sense that it's a posterior lateral corner injury; our assumption is the LCL is involved since it's the major structure there.  But no they did not explicitly state the LCL part, you're right.  Your timeline guess seems reasonable but who knows.  So much of it is based on the progress the medical team is seeing, and the Magic are so cautious with everything they could draw it out.

We can probably rule out injury to the biceps tendon, right? They would have just called it a hamstring injury?

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1 hour ago, ML6 said:

NBA denied our request for a disabled player exception for Isaac.  Put on the tin foil hats boys.

I already wear mine at all times although I recently started taking it off to shower :)

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4 hours ago, Fultz4thewin said:

Your main premise is "the team as it's currently constructed is going nowhere" that's inherently a short term problem because the hope of this franchise and everything from a long term perspective is fultz and Isaac (and Bamba once he shows ability to be a starting player). Those are all guys on rookie contracts and a few years away from reliably carrying a team. 

So roster construction isn't all that important today because we're not sitting here thinking "we just need to add one piece to this team to become a contender". Our goals are entirely "get fultz and Isaac ready to carry us when it's time and build the best team around them as possible". 

 

Now there's two schools of thought here for how to accomplish this

1. Throw guys into the deep end and see if they'll sink or swim. Give them all the minutes they can handle and eliminate threats to those minutes. There's a lot of evidence lately that this method doesn't work and I think a lot of the flaws in Vucevic and fournier's games come from developing bad habits in losses. 

2. Give guys small roles and let them earn more on good teams over time. Make them face consequences of failure. Lot of good players today coming out of this philosophy whether intentionally or as a matter of circumstance. Lowry, George, Kawhi, siakam, Butler, etc. 

 

So back to the first point. I don't expect Fournier and Vucevic to be on this team in two years. They're just a means to an end. It doesn't matter if the team as currently constructed is going nowhere because the team as currently constructed is a short term entity. 

Actually, my main premise was and is  that I don't like the path/plan that the management has taken since last summer. There were already a couple doubtful moves before than, but I was mostly happy until the Fultz trade.

You've already explained quite a few times your point of view about 2021 with a building core of Isaac and Fultz, and I absolutely respect your opinion. Is a valid one, and I agree that we should focus on them. Are we doing it right though?

The other premise "the team as it's currently constructed is going nowhere", is absolutely not a short term vision as you deduce in your post. It's being terribly worried about the way we're making our core grow. We said a lot of times that growing in a losing culture (tank), is not good for players. In the same way, for me having Isaac and Fultz growing in this kind of team, with a style that's not right for them (of for modern NBA), with guys around that doesn't really seem to care sometimes and are unable to put a constant effort, without a real leader that shows them how to be better everyday. Our veterans are really helping them grow the right way?

And while I'm high on both Isaac and Fultz, both of them have some possible injury issue, and they're very far away from the star status.  So, what about making the righr moves for 2021?

1) We could have kept a very clean salary bill for that offseason, but we chosed to give contracts until that date and beyond to Vuc-Ross-Aminu instead.

2) If we consider that the Fultz-Isaac duo is not enough to attract free agents that offseason, and the cap space would have been wasted, we could have chosen the path to accumulate picks and good short contracts, waiting for the right disgrunted player to join our duo. But we didn't either.

3) You don't think that Vuc e Evan will be on this team in two years, and I really hope you're right. But how many times we've said the same in the past? What if it's already too late?

So, I don't really think that any of this worries could be considered a short term ones. Saying that we would be better without a two months Isaac injury, is actually a short term reasoning. All my points above, and the ones made in the past, are all inherent to a long term vision.

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2 hours ago, Luke_FfS said:

Actually, my main premise was and is  that I don't like the path/plan that the management has taken since last summer. There were already a couple doubtful moves before than, but I was mostly happy until the Fultz trade.

You've already explained quite a few times your point of view about 2021 with a building core of Isaac and Fultz, and I absolutely respect your opinion. Is a valid one, and I agree that we should focus on them. Are we doing it right though?

The other premise "the team as it's currently constructed is going nowhere", is absolutely not a short term vision as you deduce in your post. It's being terribly worried about the way we're making our core grow. We said a lot of times that growing in a losing culture (tank), is not good for players. In the same way, for me having Isaac and Fultz growing in this kind of team, with a style that's not right for them (of for modern NBA), with guys around that doesn't really seem to care sometimes and are unable to put a constant effort, without a real leader that shows them how to be better everyday. Our veterans are really helping them grow the right way?

And while I'm high on both Isaac and Fultz, both of them have some possible injury issue, and they're very far away from the star status.  So, what about making the righr moves for 2021?

1) We could have kept a very clean salary bill for that offseason, but we chosed to give contracts until that date and beyond to Vuc-Ross-Aminu instead.

2) If we consider that the Fultz-Isaac duo is not enough to attract free agents that offseason, and the cap space would have been wasted, we could have chosen the path to accumulate picks and good short contracts, waiting for the right disgrunted player to join our duo. But we didn't either.

3) You don't think that Vuc e Evan will be on this team in two years, and I really hope you're right. But how many times we've said the same in the past? What if it's already too late?

So, I don't really think that any of this worries could be considered a short term ones. Saying that we would be better without a two months Isaac injury, is actually a short term reasoning. All my points above, and the ones made in the past, are all inherent to a long term vision.

So if Vucevic and Evan are on the team in July 2021 then they did a bad job, right?

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I was really disappointed when we re-signed Vuc, I wanted us to take a little step back and start Bamba.

Clearly Bamba wasn't/isn't ready to start, the FO would have seen this so had to have someone start at center. So my question is, what realistic options could we have had in the off-season if we let Vuc walk, who was available that would have been on reasonable deals?

I no longer blame the FO for not throwing Bamba in the deep end, it would have been a disaster.

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3 hours ago, JJZFL said:

I already wear mine at all times although I recently started taking it off to shower :)

Well here we are in the midst of a five day break and this forum has managed to stay pretty active, so that’s a good thing.  My only disappointment, now that ML6 has brought up the subject of tinfoil hats, is that it didn’t generate more discussion.  It’s one of my favorite topics!

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