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2019 Preseason Thread

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4 minutes ago, ?4thewin said:

"At some point" isn't the preseason. 

Do you disagree with anything other than the small sample size? That's obviously correct and he's going to get better. I coached baseball at a pretty high level for years and you have 5 tools that you are evaluated as a player. Basketball has the same type evaluation sets. 5 tool guys are "can't miss'. 4 tool guys are essentially the same. when you get below that, you better have a plus plus skill that will carry you. With respect to Fultz, he has yet to show a single skill set that  would be considered plus in by NBA standards. 

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6 minutes ago, TRoss43 said:

Do you disagree with anything other than the small sample size? That's obviously correct and he's going to get better. I coached baseball at a pretty high level for years and you have 5 tools that you are evaluated as a player. Basketball has the same type evaluation sets. 5 tool guys are "can't miss'. 4 tool guys are essentially the same. when you get below that, you better have a plus plus skill that will carry you. With respect to Fultz, he has yet to show a single skill set that  would be considered plus in by NBA standards. 

I just disagree with your overall stance on him. I think you have trouble with player evaluations based on your comparison to Payton and the fact you said you don't see athleticism or fluidity with the ball (despite video evidence to the contrary). And you mention objectivity but haven't really provided much support to your points but also don't have an open mind to changing your opinion. 

 

As far as skills, he's got elite level athleticism. He's a very good passer. He's a good defender. He's got a very quick first step. He's calm in traffic and able to avoid tunnel vision. 

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1 hour ago, TRoss43 said:

Do you disagree with anything other than the small sample size? That's obviously correct and he's going to get better. I coached baseball at a pretty high level for years and you have 5 tools that you are evaluated as a player. Basketball has the same type evaluation sets. 5 tool guys are "can't miss'. 4 tool guys are essentially the same. when you get below that, you better have a plus plus skill that will carry you. With respect to Fultz, he has yet to show a single skill set that  would be considered plus in by NBA standards. 

Basketball is different because players succeed in different ways— there’s large differences in how players like Curry make an impact and how players like Westbrook make an impact. It’s not a uniform “Fielding, speed, power, hitting consistency” like it is in baseball since players in basketball find their own success in their own ways. You also haven’t defined what those “5 tools” are, and even if you did, it’d be arbitrary because it’d be biased to certain styles of play. 

 

Fultz is our best passer on the team. He’s the best at getting into the paint, and once his finishing improves, he’ll become a valuable scorer off the bench (I remember Oladipo having a similar struggle his rookie year of getting to the basket often but not being able to convert that into points. He improved on that drastically as he progressed throughout the season and into his career, though). He’s a plus defender with his length and size, and I’ve seen him be pretty active with steals and deflections. 

 

If you want to call that the 4 tools— defending, passing, scoring, shooting— Fultz is already a 2 tool player, with a pretty short term projection of becoming a 3 tool player as his finishing improves. With respect, I don’t really see what you’re seeing— the passing and defense seem pretty plain to the eye to me, and he was terrific getting to the basket versus Boston.

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1 hour ago, 3rd Quarter Collapse said:

Basketball is different because players succeed in different ways— there’s large differences in how players like Curry make an impact and how players like Westbrook make an impact. It’s not a uniform “Fielding, speed, power, hitting consistency” like it is in baseball since players in basketball find their own success in their own ways. You also haven’t defined what those “5 tools” are, and even if you did, it’d be arbitrary because it’d be biased to certain styles of play. 

 

Fultz is our best passer on the team. He’s the best at getting into the paint, and once his finishing improves, he’ll become a valuable scorer off the bench (I remember Oladipo having a similar struggle his rookie year of getting to the basket often but not being able to convert that into points. He improved on that drastically as he progressed throughout the season and into his career, though). He’s a plus defender with his length and size, and I’ve seen him be pretty active with steals and deflections. 

 

If you want to call that the 4 tools— defending, passing, scoring, shooting— Fultz is already a 2 tool player, with a pretty short term projection of becoming a 3 tool player as his finishing improves. With respect, I don’t really see what you’re seeing— the passing and defense seem pretty plain to the eye to me, and he was terrific getting to the basket versus Boston.

I appreciate your points. Defense prowess of a PG is somewhat subjective because they switch so much .There were games where Payton's on-ball defense was excellent. Again, a PG's defensive effectiveness is not as obvious as guys in the post. Also, your last statement was that he was terrific getting to the basket tonight. Payton too was terrific at getting to the basket. You actually have to be able to finish for it to matter. Payton was sub-par there and Fultz(small sample) has been too. I got hammered pretty good for my Payton comp and have heard several times that they are completely different players.  Completely different? Really? Payton had them same type of honeymoon period on here when everyone wanted to believe that he was our PG of the future. I'll take it a step further. Had Payton played with this current Magic talent, I believe his numbers would be as good/better than Fultz's numbers will be. I hope I'm wrong and if I am, i'll gladly admit it.  I do appreciate comments and respect yours/others opinions on this.

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4 hours ago, ?4thewin said:

"At some point" isn't the preseason. 

I agree. Too early to judge. He needs mins. 

Sad thing is wes mins will get cut but him and McW have looked good.

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10 hours ago, 3rd Quarter Collapse said:

Basketball is different because players succeed in different ways— there’s large differences in how players like Curry make an impact and how players like Westbrook make an impact. It’s not a uniform “Fielding, speed, power, hitting consistency” like it is in baseball since players in basketball find their own success in their own ways. You also haven’t defined what those “5 tools” are, and even if you did, it’d be arbitrary because it’d be biased to certain styles of play. 

 

Fultz is our best passer on the team. He’s the best at getting into the paint, and once his finishing improves, he’ll become a valuable scorer off the bench (I remember Oladipo having a similar struggle his rookie year of getting to the basket often but not being able to convert that into points. He improved on that drastically as he progressed throughout the season and into his career, though). He’s a plus defender with his length and size, and I’ve seen him be pretty active with steals and deflections. 

 

If you want to call that the 4 tools— defending, passing, scoring, shooting— Fultz is already a 2 tool player, with a pretty short term projection of becoming a 3 tool player as his finishing improves. With respect, I don’t really see what you’re seeing— the passing and defense seem pretty plain to the eye to me, and he was terrific getting to the basket versus Boston.

He did good with his aggression on offense. That is what I want to see. He even took a open shot. I was okay today  with Fultz. 

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3 hours ago, LaVar said:

I agree. Too early to judge. He needs mins. 

Sad thing is wes mins will get cut but him and McW have looked good.

No doubt Fultz just needs some time. I like that he plays within himself and doesn’t try and get too cute. If he can just drop it off to Ross for a three, he does. 

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6 hours ago, TRoss43 said:

I appreciate your points. Defense prowess of a PG is somewhat subjective because they switch so much .There were games where Payton's on-ball defense was excellent. Again, a PG's defensive effectiveness is not as obvious as guys in the post. Also, your last statement was that he was terrific getting to the basket tonight. Payton too was terrific at getting to the basket. You actually have to be able to finish for it to matter. Payton was sub-par there and Fultz(small sample) has been too. I got hammered pretty good for my Payton comp and have heard several times that they are completely different players.  Completely different? Really? Payton had them same type of honeymoon period on here when everyone wanted to believe that he was our PG of the future. I'll take it a step further. Had Payton played with this current Magic talent, I believe his numbers would be as good/better than Fultz's numbers will be. I hope I'm wrong and if I am, i'll gladly admit it.  I do appreciate comments and respect yours/others opinions on this.

Payton played in lineups with Anthony Davis, jrue holiday, and Julius Randle last year and had identical numbers to his entire career. 

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29 minutes ago, ?4thewin said:

Payton played in lineups with Anthony Davis, jrue holiday, and Julius Randle last year and had identical numbers to his entire career. 

Really? How many games did he play with Davis? Also injuries played a big part of Payton’s last year. Hey Lavar, you will get bashed anytime you say anything positive about Payton on here. Just saying. 

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9 hours ago, 3rd Quarter Collapse said:
1 hour ago, ?4thewin said:

Payton played in lineups with Anthony Davis, jrue holiday, and Julius Randle last year and had identical numbers to his entire career. 

Basketball is different because players succeed in different ways— there’s large differences in how players like Curry make an impact and how players like Westbrook make an impact. It’s not a uniform “Fielding, speed, power, hitting consistency” like it is in baseball since players in basketball find their own success in their own ways. You also haven’t defined what those “5 tools” are, and even if you did, it’d be arbitrary because it’d be biased to certain styles of play. 

 

Fultz is our best passer on the team. He’s the best at getting into the paint, and once his finishing improves, he’ll become a valuable scorer off the bench (I remember Oladipo having a similar struggle his rookie year of getting to the basket often but not being able to convert that into points. He improved on that drastically as he progressed throughout the season and into his career, though). He’s a plus defender with his length and size, and I’ve seen him be pretty active with steals and deflections. 

 

If you want to call that the 4 tools— defending, passing, scoring, shooting— Fultz is already a 2 tool player, with a pretty short term projection of becoming a 3 tool player as his finishing improves. With respect, I don’t really see what you’re seeing— the passing and defense seem pretty plain to the eye to me, and he was terrific getting to the basket versus Boston.

I appreciate your points. Defense prowess of a PG is somewhat subjective because they switch so much .There were games where Payton's on-ball defense was excellent. Again, a PG's defensive effectiveness is not as obvious as guys in the post. Also, your last statement was that he was terrific getting to the basket tonight. Payton too was terrific at getting to the basket. You actually have to be able to finish for it to matter. Payton was sub-par there and Fultz(small sample) has been too. I got hammered pretty good for my Payton comp and have heard several times that they are completely different players.  Completely different? Really? Payton had them same type of honeymoon period on here when everyone wanted to believe that he was our PG of the future. I'll take it a step further. Had Payton played with this current Magic talent, I believe his numbers would be as good/better than Fultz's numbers will be. I hope I'm wrong and if I am, i'll gladly admit it.  I do appreciate comments and respect yours/others opinions on this.

 

1 hour ago, ?4thewin said:

Payton played in lineups with Anthony Davis, jrue holiday, and Julius Randle last year and had identical numbers to his entire career. 

Payton's number with Orlando was roughly 10-4-6. I'm going to predict that Fultz's numbers after this yr. will be 10-5-5. Solid enough numbers for a back-up PG but if you read all the glowing commentary about Fultz on here, I think it's safe to say that people don't think they are looking at a guy who will just put up solid back-up numbers. He was totally worth a shot in terms of what the front office packaged to get him. I just don't think he's the piece that moves Orlando into the upper eschelon of the Eastern conf. I believe that piece was already on the roster. 3 pieces actually~AG,JI and MB. Their individual growth will determine how far the Magic climb in conference for the next several years. I also believe that had the F.O. not resigned Vuc, this whole growth curve would've been severely hampered. He is still the "glue guy" on this team because of his ability to keep our offense moving. Bamba, I believe will become that guy, but he's not yet. With the range that both Bamba/Vuc possess, I would like to see these two on the court together more this year. Bamba can protect paint and minimize Vuc's weakness on that front. A lineup of DJ/TRoss/AG/Vuc/Bamba could be very potent on both ends.

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1 hour ago, fan for too long 2 said:

Really? How many games did he play with Davis? Also injuries played a big part of Payton’s last year. Hey Lavar, you will get bashed anytime you say anything positive about Payton on here. Just saying. 

lol. There was times that Payton looked like a starter. 

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1 hour ago, TRoss43 said:

I appreciate your points. Defense prowess of a PG is somewhat subjective because they switch so much .There were games where Payton's on-ball defense was excellent. Again, a PG's defensive effectiveness is not as obvious as guys in the post. Also, your last statement was that he was terrific getting to the basket tonight. Payton too was terrific at getting to the basket. You actually have to be able to finish for it to matter. Payton was sub-par there and Fultz(small sample) has been too. I got hammered pretty good for my Payton comp and have heard several times that they are completely different players.  Completely different? Really? Payton had them same type of honeymoon period on here when everyone wanted to believe that he was our PG of the future. I'll take it a step further. Had Payton played with this current Magic talent, I believe his numbers would be as good/better than Fultz's numbers will be. I hope I'm wrong and if I am, i'll gladly admit it.  I do appreciate comments and respect yours/others opinions on this.

 

Payton's number with Orlando was roughly 10-4-6. I'm going to predict that Fultz's numbers after this yr. will be 10-5-5. Solid enough numbers for a back-up PG but if you read all the glowing commentary about Fultz on here, I think it's safe to say that people don't think they are looking at a guy who will just put up solid back-up numbers. He was totally worth a shot in terms of what the front office packaged to get him. I just don't think he's the piece that moves Orlando into the upper eschelon of the Eastern conf. I believe that piece was already on the roster. 3 pieces actually~AG,JI and MB. Their individual growth will determine how far the Magic climb in conference for the next several years. I also believe that had the F.O. not resigned Vuc, this whole growth curve would've been severely hampered. He is still the "glue guy" on this team because of his ability to keep our offense moving. Bamba, I believe will become that guy, but he's not yet. With the range that both Bamba/Vuc possess, I would like to see these two on the court together more this year. Bamba can protect paint and minimize Vuc's weakness on that front. A lineup of DJ/TRoss/AG/Vuc/Bamba could be very potent on both ends.

If his shot starts to fall. He would move the bar. His success and impact is directly tied in with his jump shot. The more shots he makes. The more he can do on the court and setup others. The less shots he makes. The more teams will pack the paint and the less he can be on the court. This is why I am so hard on him finding a rhythm and taking shots now, because I want him to move the bar and do well. 

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