Official preseason thread

[Fultz4thewin 2,464]

52 minutes ago, The Neighborhood Bully said:

It's tough to win with below average talent.

Not really. 

I mean it is in the grand scheme of the league but not for what our goals are. 

[JJZFL 618]

1 hour ago, magicdoc1 said:

I dont understand how you consider Gordon,  fournier and Vuc below average talent. They are in my opinion above average.

Isaac and Bamba are still to young to judge but are, in my opinion, start quality players which makes them above average. 

DJ, Simmons, Ross, Grant are average players and not below average. 

That makes our rotation of 9 players not below average in my book. 

 

 

They have accomplished way below average results ( some of the worst in the NBA) for the past 6 years.  I’m not including Bamba or Issac in that assessment.  Some have been with team more than others, true, but the various comings and goings haven’t really made much difference during that time period.  If the main components who compiled this really awful record are all average or above average, then someone has done an incredible job in coaching them to make them this bad.  

Actually, your assessment is wrong.  Compared to other teams, up to this point and again excluding Bamba/Issac, our overall talent level has been just as bad as our record indicates. 

[Fultz4thewin 2,464]

Just now, JJZFL said:

They have accomplished way below average results ( some of the worst in the NBA) for the past 6 years.  I’m not including Bamba or Issac in that assessment.  Some have been with team more than others, true, but the various comings and goings haven’t really made much difference during that time period.  If the main components who compiled this really awful record are all average or above average, then someone has done an incredible job in coaching them to make them this bad.  

Actually, your assessment is wrong.  Compared to other teams, up to this point and again excluding Bamba/Issac, our overall talent level has been just as bad as our record indicates. 

Eh. This might be surprising to you but Fournier is about average among starting wings and Gordon is above average for starting forwards. 

Our problem (historically) is we lack elite talent (which we haven't really allowed the development of). 

Last year is kind of hard to analyze as our injury situation was so anomalous that you can't really include it. When we were healthy we won a lot. But the sampling of that was so small it's difficult to say we definitely would have made the playoffs. Especially considering we were healthy in 15-16 and our early winning took us all the way to a 19-13 record before the wheels fell off. 

But we're also only returning 61% of the minutes played last year and 45% of those played two years ago and 25% of the minutes 3 years ago so I'm not sure it makes sense to judge this team off of the sins of 6 years. 

[magicdoc1 261]

2 hours ago, JJZFL said:

They have accomplished way below average results ( some of the worst in the NBA) for the past 6 years.  I’m not including Bamba or Issac in that assessment.  Some have been with team more than others, true, but the various comings and goings haven’t really made much difference during that time period.  If the main components who compiled this really awful record are all average or above average, then someone has done an incredible job in coaching them to make them this bad.  

Actually, your assessment is wrong.  Compared to other teams, up to this point and again excluding Bamba/Issac, our overall talent level has been just as bad as our record indicates. 

I dont agree with you here. My assessment is based on this year players. I am not talking about our team in the past 6 years. 

You are removing Bamba and Isaac out of the equation which makes sense but then relates our 6  year struggle as a franchise on our current core of players. Then, you make an assumption and grade the quality of  our current players on that.  You are also not taking in consideration the bad luck with injuries we have had over the years. This has played a big factor in our struggles over the last 2 years. Not to count the awful trades, poor coaching and lack of playing times on some of this players.

Your statement classifying Gordon, Fournier and even Vuch below average players is crazy to say the least. Like I said, I also consider simmons and Ross average players and not below average. ( my opinion and not based in any stats)

I never said they are all above average. I think the only player above average in our roster is Gordon with a possiblity for Isaac and Bamba to join him. 

 

[Fultz4thewin 2,464]

To understand how many injuries we had last year look at iwundu. He was, at best, our 13th man in the rotation last year. 

If you look at other opening night 13th men you'll see that they played 30, 139, 80, 480, 225, 344, 108, 498, 578, 189 minutes total last year. 

Iwundu played 1020

Shabazz Napier only played 600 minutes for us 2 years ago. Harkless played 674 minutes for us 3 years ago. Ronnie price played 377 minutes for us 4 years ago. Ish Smith played 378 minutes and 171 minutes. 

We didn't use a 13th man in 2010. 

Guys who weren't supposed to play more than garbage time here and there played significant minutes last year. 

[Fultz4thewin 2,464]

I'm so bored I need basketball to come back. 

[Odin 137]

1 hour ago, ?4thewin said:

To understand how many injuries we had last year look at iwundu. He was, at best, our 13th man in the rotation last year. 

If you look at other opening night 13th men you'll see that they played 30, 139, 80, 480, 225, 344, 108, 498, 578, 189 minutes total last year. 

Iwundu played 1020

Shabazz Napier only played 600 minutes for us 2 years ago. Harkless played 674 minutes for us 3 years ago. Ronnie price played 377 minutes for us 4 years ago. Ish Smith played 378 minutes and 171 minutes. 

We didn't use a 13th man in 2010. 

Guys who weren't supposed to play more than garbage time here and there played significant minutes last year. 

Yeah. Arron Afflalo, who was probably supposed to be no more than a bench warmer/ good vet presence played 682 minutes last year. Speights, our 5th or 6th best big man, played 675.

At full strength, we weren't as bad as our record showed. The issue was that barely anyone could stay healthy. None of our starters from the opening game made it even to 60 games. We only had one player hit all 82 (Biyombo) and 2 other players reach over 70 (Mario and Augustin).

 

[Odin 137]

3 minutes ago, ?4thewin said:

I'm so bored I need basketball to come back. 

Agreed.

[Ibn Battuta 127]

4 hours ago, magicdoc1 said:

I dont agree with you here. My assessment is based on this year players. I am not talking about our team in the past 6 years. 

You are removing Bamba and Isaac out of the equation which makes sense but then relates our 6  year struggle as a franchise on our current core of players. Then, you make an assumption and grade the quality of  our current players on that.  You are also not taking in consideration the bad luck with injuries we have had over the years. This has played a big factor in our struggles over the last 2 years. Not to count the awful trades, poor coaching and lack of playing times on some of this players.

Your statement classifying Gordon, Fournier and even Vuch below average players is crazy to say the least. Like I said, I also consider simmons and Ross average players and not below average. ( my opinion and not based in any stats)

I never said they are all above average. I think the only player above average in our roster is Gordon with a possiblity for Isaac and Bamba to join him. 

 

How can you assess this year's players when they have yet to play a minute? You can't knock a poster who looks at their past and projects based on that, while you "assess" them based on hopes and dreams. 

[magicdoc1 261]

1 hour ago, Ibn Battuta said:

How can you assess this year's players when they have yet to play a minute? You can't knock a poster who looks at their past and projects based on that, while you "assess" them based on hopes and dreams. 

Who is doing that?? First. I am not knocking on anyone. We are just having a different understanding and opinion in the matter. Second, your current point is baseless. Our opinion is mainly based on players who has played in the past few years.  We are mainly talking about AG, Fournier and Vuch.  Now, he maked a fair point in that they have accomplished below average results but that is not entirely due to below average talent. You have to consider a lot of things that has happened throughout those years(injuries, inconsistent coaching, poor management/development, poor quality PG, trades etc..)

I stand by my opinion that neither if this 3 players are below average as he was stating based mainly on our past losing record. The NBA league currently values AG as one of the top PF in the league and That is not just my opinion.

Fournier and Vuch are not below average players either. Vuch is certainly a below average defender but above average offensive player. Hence, why he is still considered as one of the best player in our team. This coming from someone who doesnt like him. 

Fournier is a solid player who can score and can start for almost any team in the league. 

Like I said before, you Can’t discount or downplay the amount of time this player were out due to injuries. 

I  can see and in a way understand your hate toward the current players but I honestly dont understand  where are you getting that my “assessment” on the players are based on “hopes and dreams” 

We both took Isaac and Bamba out of the equation. 

 

[Originalticketholder 133]

6 hours ago, ?4thewin said:

To understand how many injuries we had last year look at iwundu. He was, at best, our 13th man in the rotation last year. 

If you look at other opening night 13th men you'll see that they played 30, 139, 80, 480, 225, 344, 108, 498, 578, 189 minutes total last year. 

Iwundu played 1020

Shabazz Napier only played 600 minutes for us 2 years ago. Harkless played 674 minutes for us 3 years ago. Ronnie price played 377 minutes for us 4 years ago. Ish Smith played 378 minutes and 171 minutes. 

We didn't use a 13th man in 2010. 

Guys who weren't supposed to play more than garbage time here and there played significant minutes last year. 

You make great points here and the beauty of Iwundu playing 1020 minutes is it got us a draft pick position in a great year to draft big men which got us Bamba.  Last year's failure may be the gift that keeps on giving for a decade or more.  That is my hope and I think I will be proven right.  We could have a good year if everything goes our way but I think our youth will take a little time to develop and we take that "giant leap" next year.  But I won't be disappointed it we do that this year.

[magicdoc1 261]

11 hours ago, Originalticketholder said:

You make great points here and the beauty of Iwundu playing 1020 minutes is it got us a draft pick position in a great year to draft big men which got us Bamba.  Last year's failure may be the gift that keeps on giving for a decade or more.  That is my hope and I think I will be proven right.  We could have a good year if everything goes our way but I think our youth will take a little time to develop and we take that "giant leap" next year.  But I won't be disappointed it we do that this year.

I hear you I just hope we play a full season without major injuries for one. Looking forward to see more of Bamba and Isaac. I can say for once that I am looking forward for this group of guys to develop with the right system and coach. I wish Mario was still here for just one more season.