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Bauncey Chillups

2018 NBA Draft Thread

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17 minutes ago, billy5783 said:

For sure. And for the record I do agree with you on the culture argument. When you have a lame duck coach like we do, the culture stuff can start next year with new blood.

I'm not so sure that Vogel is a lame duck. With management's decision to ride out the season and evaluate our players which saddled Vogel with Payton and Vuc as defensive holes I would think they'll give him at least part of the season to see how he does with new players in those slots.

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10 hours ago, Mike1989 said:

Do you not find it inherently wrong to reward teams that tank over teams that are genuinely bad and teams that actually try to get better and compete?

I personally find it wrong that teams will openly tank to get better odds in the lottery. It taints the system that you describe because the draft is meant to be a way that allows bad teams to acquire talent to help them improve, instead there are teams like Philadelphia that abuse the system by trading away their best players and putting a make shift group of players on the court with no real intention to win games and get better. This season Mark Cuban openly admitted that the Dallas Mavericks are tanking. What was their punishment? A $600,000 fine. The guy is worth $3.8 billion dollars so that punitive fine does nothing to prevent teams from tanking. It is like one of us getting a parking ticket. Most of us wouldn't bat an eyelid at the typical parking ticket fine, we'd just pay it and get on with our lives, and some might even park in the same way again. Throughout his time as an owner Mark Cuban has been fined on a regular basis. I actually like his outspoken and candid manner because it is refreshing when compared to the typical sports team owner, but that fine has not deterred them from tanking and they have stayed the course. Perhaps a better punishment would have been taking away their draft pick because tanking is essentially cheating because you are losing on purpose to improve your lottery odds. Granted that approach might have seen Dallas take legal action and attempt to prove other teams are tanking as well, but a hard line stance might have sent a message to teams to not tank. Even the new lottery odds are not going to make a difference. Teams will still tank and that hurts the teams that are genuinely bad, as well as the teams that are actually making an effort to get better and compete. 

Why is it plain wrong that the Celtics have stockpiled draft picks? 

They decided to end their big three era and trade away Kevin Garnett and Paul Pierce to the Brooklyn Nets. At the time the Nets made that trade because they thought their additions would make them a title contender and win them a championship, instead their additions did little for them and has now put them into the situation they are in today. So it is not the Celtics fault that the Nets draft picks have ultimately proven to be as valuable as they have been. The blame lies entirely with the inept organisation that made the trade in the first place and gave them picks away. Likewise, it is not the Celtics fault that the Kings made a stupid trade with the 76ers. The Kings traded away Nik Stauskas, Carl Landry, and Jason Thompson in a salary dump, in which they gave the 76ers the rights to swap first round picks in 2016 and 2017, and gave them a future first round pick (top ten protected in 2018, unprotected in 2019) which is likely on its way to Boston. You can't blame the Celtics for other team's stupidity. All Boston are guilty of is rebuilding their team successfully. The Celtics had one bad year in 2013-14 and even then they ranked 12th in the eastern conference ahead of us, Philadelphia and Milwaukee. After that season they progressed to 40-42 and made the play offs as the 7th seed, followed that by improving to 48-34 and made the play offs as the 5th seed, and last season they went 53-29 and made the play offs as the top seed. So the Celtics aren't a tanking team, instead they are either really smart or really lucky or a combination of both. 

Do I like the idea of young talent becoming free agents after one year? 

Not really because they could decide to sign for the best teams. I'm sure we would all like to believe that DeAndre Ayton would sign for a rebuilding team because he could go there and become "the man", but why would he sign for a rebuilding team over someone like the Warriors? The Warriors have a proven track record of developing all stars (Curry, Thompson, Green), have competed for and won titles, and offer him the opportunity to play with some of the best players to step on to an NBA court. We would have to be pretty naive to think that the Suns with Devin Booker and Josh Jackson could compete with the Warriors players. Same goes for teams like the Rockets, Cavaliers, and Celtics. They can all offer these young players a potential starting position and the chance to develop on a good team rather than have to develop on a bad team.

Plus, these young players could decide to take less money and make up their earnings off court by signing for a big market team or a title contending team. They might even decide to take less money because they want to play on a good team rather than a bad team. Or they could just decide to take an initial hit and build up those earnings on subsequent contracts, especially if those teams end up with the rights to sign them to big money extensions without needing the cap space to do so.

So what could happen if the league adopted this method is the young talents could turn their nose up at the opportunity to join bad teams and small market teams. If the league wants to create a huge divide they should adopt this model. 

Three answers to your questions

1.  Teams that are tanking are the bad teams so yes they deserve a chance to get better.     They tank because the League does nothing about it as we saw with Philly and the Lakers.  You validate that with the Cuban fine which, in essence, was nothing.  I think tanking should be stopped but until the League does something that really works it will continue.  Possibly along with the fine would be a 3-5 position drop in the draft itself.  But the weasel Silver will not do anything like that.  This year Lakers fined $500,000 for tampering and then when caught a second time fined $10,000.  Have you ever herd of a second offense resulting in less of a penalty than the first one?  If you were warned once the penalty for the second offense should be amplified!  Not so much for the darliong Lakers  who got away with tampering with Shaq!!!  I am all for getting rid of the lottery and either going back to a draft based on record or as ?4thewin says No draft and free agency

2.  What is wrong with the Philly and Celtic scenario is the salary structure for rookies.  That is why good teams should not draft in front of teams with worse record no matter what! Unless we change to wither total free agency or rookies with free agency after their first year.  Celtics were the #1 seed last year and got the #1 draft pick.  Philly and Lakers doing the same thing!  And because they have had high picks the last few years they had low salaries for those rookies enabling them to sign Gordon Hayward to a max contract.  Lakers have two max contracgts this year and Philly has one.  Stockpiling/acquiring good players due to paying the low rookie scale IS inherently unjust and wrong!!!!

3. Teams only have so much money to spend so all free agents will not just go to the best teams.  And what is wrong with a rookie deciding to play elsewhere.  Should be their choice.  AND that really would solve TANKING!!!!  Warriors way over the salary cap so they could not sign Ayton in your scenario.  Teams will have to make wise decisions. Once again the weasel Silver and the NBA need to oversee tampering and not allowing teams to violate/manipulate the salary cap.  

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58 minutes ago, billy5783 said:

We are pretty much in the exact same position right now that we were before the game. The Mavs win kept us there. Still have the 4th odds. Just relax

I will relax when the 3rd pick does not turn into #1 or #2.  Anybody think the Knicks are now tanking.  That Knick effort was pathetic!!! If I were us I would have scored 72!!!!

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6 hours ago, JJZFL said:

I don’t entirely agree with you about tanking.  But I respect your reasoning, so +1 from me. 

At this point, the season is almost over anyway, so any discussion about our strategy for the rest of this year will soon be moot. 

I think one thing many of us can agree on is that we don’t want to be having this same discussion 2-3 years from now.  At some point, I think almost everyone wants the tanking/losing to stop. 

I am optimistic we are getting near the end of the tanking/losing discussion with the Magic.  I like our FO who do not appear to panic and seem to find good talent with limited resources.  I am looking forward to adding another good player or two (second rounders) to add to Gordon (I think we will match any offer ) and Isaac.  Proibably a "one and done" who will take a year or so to develop.  It would be really nice if we "magically" pulled a rabbit out of a hat and resigned Mario.  I like the way this team is coming together.  I am sure other changes are coming but feel confident they will help!  And in a couple of years when we have some salary cap space we can have a good nucleus to lure someone here.  

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Justin Jaudon    117
16 minutes ago, Originalticketholder said:

I will relax when the 3rd pick does not turn into #1 or #2.  Anybody think the Knicks are now tanking.  That Knick effort was pathetic!!! If I were us I would have scored 72!!!!

I am not sure what you want the team to do. We're holding out players with even minimal injuries. We're 'evaluating some of our G-League talent', giving them a lot of minutes. Do you want the players to intentionally lose games? If so, I hope you also want to trade away or release every single one of them; because any player who would throw a game for any reason is not someone we should want in a Magic uniform. Do you think the coach should actively try to lose? If so, I hope you're thinking we'll fire him immediately after. Of course, that would be awkward, if he then told the league that management told him to lose games. Might cost us more than we want to lose. Real players don't tank. Real coaches don't tank. GM's tank. They put together bad teams, they dictate extreme caution with any injury, they dictate 'evaluation of young talent'. We're fans, so it's okay to have the mindset that we should have scored 72. But they are players and coaches, and if they had that mindset they would be fans like us soon enough.

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1 hour ago, Justin Jaudon said:

I am not sure what you want the team to do. We're holding out players with even minimal injuries. We're 'evaluating some of our G-League talent', giving them a lot of minutes. Do you want the players to intentionally lose games? If so, I hope you also want to trade away or release every single one of them; because any player who would throw a game for any reason is not someone we should want in a Magic uniform. Do you think the coach should actively try to lose? If so, I hope you're thinking we'll fire him immediately after. Of course, that would be awkward, if he then told the league that management told him to lose games. Might cost us more than we want to lose. Real players don't tank. Real coaches don't tank. GM's tank. They put together bad teams, they dictate extreme caution with any injury, they dictate 'evaluation of young talent'. We're fans, so it's okay to have the mindset that we should have scored 72. But they are players and coaches, and if they had that mindset they would be fans like us soon enough.

I want the best player possible.  Did you see the Knicks total lack of effort in the 2nd half.  28 points in the 2nd half.  Not caring/no effort/tanking or whatever you want to call it are the same thing.  One play when we got an offensive rebound two Knick players just stood there and then one of them just shoved our guy.  Knicks just mailed it in!  Why--I suspect tanking!!!

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magicblue    217
8 hours ago, ROCK LEGENDS PHOTOGRAPHERS said:

So today's meaningless win knocked us from tied for 3rd to 4th place. But hey, we built some winning culture for our G league players and Mario, none of whom may be on our team next season! As long as we lose to Dallas and don't win more than 2 more games we are locked into finishing no worse than tied for 5th at this point but we'll probably get 4th.  

It’s gonna be tough to lose to Dallas I’m afraid

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billy5783    12
7 hours ago, ROCK LEGENDS PHOTOGRAPHERS said:

I'm not so sure that Vogel is a lame duck. With management's decision to ride out the season and evaluate our players which saddled Vogel with Payton and Vuc as defensive holes I would think they'll give him at least part of the season to see how he does with new players in those slots.

I just think there there’s too much smoke for there to not be some fire on the Vogel stories. I was excited when we hired him but the dude is just not the answer

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?4thewin    1,481

Tanking isn't about deliberately throwing games.  It's about artificially worsening your odds to win.  We've shut down a good percentage of the team.  We're not playing any veterans over younger players.  We played our 14th, 15th, and 16th spots in the rotation starters minutes in the second half.  

Not much else you can do.  Mario artis and mack got hot.  Mudiay is really bad.  

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