Rockets @ Magic 1/3/2018 - 7 p.m.

[JJZFL 619]

8 hours ago, fan for too long 2 said:

U cannot seriously think we have a bunch of guys who are not coachable. No way. I'm sorry but 99% of all players are coachable.

This on the coach, period. 

I dunno. Not something I know enough about to argue, that’s for sure. I was just throwing out ideas as to why it appears, at least in a few games recently, that the team stopped trying and just gave up. It certainly makes the coach look bad when the other team parades down the middle of the court for barely contested layups repeatedly.  Once or twice, you can blame missed assignments, but when it happens again and again and again.....

It’s almost as though the players know that they’re making the coach look bad and just don’t care.  It’s why I agree strongly with where P4TW was going with a couple of his comments above. 

[Magicpassion 4]

This team looks like their spirit is broken! We have had a rough 5/6 years by missing out on draft picks, switching coaches, front office and adjusting constantly to new systems. I feel a lot of this has been bad luck and self generated, but at this point in time we are definitely staring down at the abyss. This is about as bad of a team that I’ve seen since inception of 1989; at least some of those lean years the players had fight in them. I’m going to see what this new front office can do, but at some point we have to start looking at ownership. Nobody likes a constant LOSER!!! It just puts you in a bad mood. I do believe we have the best infrastructure for basketball operations that we have ever had with Lakeland in the fold and probably one of the best facilities in the entire NBA (thanks to tax payer subsidies); so yea I’m a little p.... that all the support the community has offered and we get this subpar product year after year. Unfortunately, now that the writing is on the wall that changes are certain to come; we may start seeing the players play for themselves instead of one another; knowing they could be auditioning for another team.

[Fultz4thewin 2,464]

3 hours ago, JJZFL said:

I dunno. Not something I know enough about to argue, that’s for sure. I was just throwing out ideas as to why it appears, at least in a few games recently, that the team stopped trying and just gave up. It certainly makes the coach look bad when the other team parades down the middle of the court for barely contested layups repeatedly.  Once or twice, you can blame missed assignments, but when it happens again and again and again.....

It’s almost as though the players know that they’re making the coach look bad and just don’t care.  It’s why I agree strongly with where P4TW was going with a couple of his comments above. 

It's not as if the team isn't listening to Vogel because its not coachable per se.  But team play on both sides of the ball require  everyone to trust the plan.  When guys see the plan not working it takes a significant trust to continue following through with the plan. That's when you see breakdowns. Players abandon the plan and try to save things by doing something different.  

That's the current predicament Vogel is in.  If the players have lost faith in vogels plan we're in for some ugly basketball

[fan for too long 2 531]

1 hour ago, Payton4thewin said:

It's not as if the team isn't listening to Vogel because its not coachable per se.  But team play on both sides of the ball require  everyone to trust the plan.  When guys see the plan not working it takes a significant trust to continue following through with the plan. That's when you see breakdowns. Players abandon the plan and try to save things by doing something different.  

That's the current predicament Vogel is in.  If the players have lost faith in vogels plan we're in for some ugly basketball

Vogels plan sucks so I have no problem with the players trying something different. 

[Soul Bro 1,419]

I like Vogel a lot more than our roster, save AG.

[JJZFL 619]

5 hours ago, Soul Bro said:

I like Vogel a lot more than our roster, save AG.

I agree.

[Justin Jaudon 221]

But Vogel was supposed to be our great savior after the Wicked Witch Scott Skiles quit. I certainly remember seeing a lot of cheering and songs of "Ding dong, the Witch is dead" on this board when he left and we got Vogel. Now it's Vogel's fault because he doesn't hold players accountable and they are doing their own thing? Which kind of coach do we want, people? We've tried a cheerleader in Vaughn, a drill sergeant in Skiles, and an amateur psychologist in Vogel. Skiles' short tenure was the closest we've looked to heading in the right direction; but his emotional instability KO'd that. I think we need to pray Dallas fires Rick Carlisle and we can somehow convince him to pick up this rebuild. We need someone who's adaptable, will hold players accountable, is consistent with his personality and his vision, and can handle the pressure; and that's Carlisle from all we know of him. (or maybe Jameer Nelson retires and wants to coach, a la Jason Kidd... hehe).

[JJZFL 619]

20 hours ago, Payton4thewin said:

It's not as if the team isn't listening to Vogel because its not coachable per se.  But team play on both sides of the ball require  everyone to trust the plan.  When guys see the plan not working it takes a significant trust to continue following through with the plan. That's when you see breakdowns. Players abandon the plan and try to save things by doing something different.  

That's the current predicament Vogel is in.  If the players have lost faith in vogels plan we're in for some ugly basketball

I think that's a pretty good explanation.  However, you could say the same thing about any losing team.  And in general you don't see those other teams giving up on their coach, and just doing their own thing (and not playing defense at all).  So there seems to be more to it.

[Fultz4thewin 2,464]

53 minutes ago, JJZFL said:

I think that's a pretty good explanation.  However, you could say the same thing about any losing team.  And in general you don't see those other teams giving up on their coach, and just doing their own thing (and not playing defense at all).  So there seems to be more to it.

That's the thing though.  That's why i said Vogel might get fired. Win or lose a coaches value only comes from getting guys to buy in.  

Basically its not a symptom of losing.  The losing is a catalyst for the change.  Coaches that still have the locker room  can still maintain that trust during losing streaks.  

[fan for too long 2 531]

16 minutes ago, Payton4thewin said:

That's the thing though.  That's why i said Vogel might get fired. Win or lose a coaches value only comes from getting guys to buy in.  

Basically its not a symptom of losing.  The losing is a catalyst for the change.  Coaches that still have the locker room  can still maintain that trust during losing streaks.  

This team needs a former player to coach them and not some division 3 player who can spin the ball on whatever. A young team needs a coach they have the utmost respect for. 

[Fultz4thewin 2,464]

7 minutes ago, fan for too long 2 said:

This team needs a former player to coach them and not some division 3 player who can spin the ball on whatever. A young team needs a coach they have the utmost respect for. 

No.  This isn't a style problem.  Its a "you only have a finite amount of speeches to give players and they don't work the third or fourth time" problem.  

[Soul Bro 1,419]

Weltman just announced in the OS that Vogel is safe for this season and next:

OS: Is his job safe for next season? 

Weltman: Yes. When I say that Frank’s done a good job, then as far as I’m concerned, I put that over on the side and say, “Frank’s done a good job. Let’s look where we can improve.” And that doesn’t mean that Frank can’t get better. I’m sure Frank will tell you the same thing himself just as I myself every day, after I drive home, ask myself, “What could I have done better today?” We can all do better. But Frank’s done a good job. If you’re asking me, “Is he safe?” Yes, sure. But that doesn’t mean that we’re not all going to be challenged to do better. That’s every part of the organization.