Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Orlando Magic Toaster

Magic @ Pistons (Early game 4pm)

Recommended Posts

ML6    151
Just now, Payton4thewin said:

When posters took joy in suggesting Mario doesn't belong in the nba and should just go back to Europe it bothered me.  

Fair

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Magicman28    189
1 hour ago, ML6 said:

21 mins vs. Portland is not small grapes --  4pts, 2 rebs, 0 asts.    I am not discrediting the DET game, he was good.  LAC game I'd say he still looked pretty bad a lot of the time but his bar is so low that everyone exploded because he did SOMETHING.

And yes, people are overreacting.  When someone establishes a baseline of incompetence, you can be surprised, impressed, and hopeful when they do something good -- that's fine and that's where we should be.  There are some posts in this very thread acting like now Mario now should be some integral part of this team, we should try to re-sign him, develop him, people should eat crow, we've clearly mismanaged him, etc -- that's where it's too much.

I am glad he had a good game.  He's in a Magic uniform so I'm rooting for him.  But he needs to establish a string of competent games to change the body of evidence he has submitted.   

To give an analogy from the healthcare field: Mario has thus far published a 2.5 year randomized, double-blinded study establishing poor play.  This is a decent baseline of evidence that he's bad, but more evidence is needed before fully writing him off.  Mario's DET game is a great case report.  It piques our interest, but we can't draw any solid conclusions from it given the sample size (one player, one game), and we know his prior study has a much stronger design and much more evidence says the opposite.  Mario needs to submit a randomized, controlled, double-blind, multinational study (many good games), before people start crowning him and casting off the initial study as a scientific anomaly.

It's not just minutes. His role in that portland game compared to the Clipper game was night and day which is another part of the equation that's off.

I think you're misinterpreting the reaction. He's had more than one good game. The reaction though stems from the inconsistent  yo-yoing methodology that what seems no matter who's in charge seems to be used and to watch said player go to another team and work through their faults and imperfections with consistent role and playing time and become the player we hoped they would've been here.

Its maddening and people such as myself are quite tired of it. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
ML6    151

Do we just ignore the fact that Gordon is doing exactly what you're describing while still in Orlando?  Doesn't his meteoric development count?  What if Mario's overall lack of development is due to personal traits and not a franchise-related issue?  Do we know if he has a great attitude behind the scenes, puts in extra work, pushes himself to be great?  What if he doesn't get PT to develop because he's a team cancer behind the scenes?  We don't really know what else could be at play. 

Besides Oladipo, who has blossomed in the way you're describing, and would he have developed the same way if he stayed here and didn't see Westbrook work day in and day out?  Harris is largely doing the same thing he was here, just on another team.  Harkless is an inconsequential player, despite getting playing time.  No one is losing sleep over his development.

It's tough to blame it all on the franchise when there are so many unknowns.  There have certainly been big missteps but it's hard to assign all the blame in one area.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Payton4thewin    1,216
13 minutes ago, Magicman28 said:

It's not just minutes. His role in that portland game compared to the Clipper game was night and day which is another part of the equation that's off.

I think you're misinterpreting the reaction. He's had more than one good game. The reaction though stems from the inconsistent  yo-yoing methodology that what seems no matter who's in charge seems to be used and to watch said player go to another team and work through their faults and imperfections with consistent role and playing time and become the player we hoped they would've been here.

Its maddening and people such as myself are quite tired of it. 

It's not unusual for role players to have a 4 point game in between good ones.  

He played a normal nba player sub par game. No turnovers.  Moved the ball when he had to.  Blew an assignment or two.  That's a typical end of rotation type guy.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Payton4thewin    1,216
10 minutes ago, ML6 said:

Do we just ignore the fact that Gordon is doing exactly what you're describing while still in Orlando?  Doesn't his meteoric development count?  What if Mario's overall lack of development is due to personal traits and not a franchise-related issue?  Do we know if he has a great attitude behind the scenes, puts in extra work, pushes himself to be great?  What if he doesn't get PT to develop because he's a team cancer behind the scenes?  We don't really know what else could be at play. 

Besides Oladipo, who has blossomed in the way you're describing, and would he have developed the same way if he stayed here and didn't see Westbrook work day in and day out?  Harris is largely doing the same thing he was here, just on another team.  Harkless is an inconsequential player, despite getting playing time.  No one is losing sleep over his development.

It's tough to blame it all on the franchise when there are so many unknowns.  There have certainly been big missteps but it's hard to assign all the blame in one area.

We've been pretty patient with Gordon and i feel like that's paying off.  

We've been pretty patient with Payton and that hasn't paid off at all. 

Should have been more patient with oladipo.  Cashed him in at the wrong time.  

Harkless got squeezed out.  Shouldn't bother anyone.  Guys need minutes and he had no path to them.

Losing Harris shouldn't bother anyone too much.  The trade is the bad part. But he's fallen back to earth. Last 17 games he's at 16.1 ppg and 5.6 rebounds on 43.7% shooting overall. The three point shooting is still there.  You gotta figure that remains but he's not the 20ppg guy 10-3 record guy he was earlier.  He's the same guy we traded. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Magicman28    189
17 minutes ago, ML6 said:

Do we just ignore the fact that Gordon is doing exactly what you're describing while still in Orlando?  Doesn't his meteoric development count?  What if Mario's overall lack of development is due to personal traits and not a franchise-related issue?  Do we know if he has a great attitude behind the scenes, puts in extra work, pushes himself to be great?  What if he doesn't get PT to develop because he's a team cancer behind the scenes?  We don't really know what else could be at play. 

Besides Oladipo, who has blossomed in the way you're describing, and would he have developed the same way if he stayed here and didn't see Westbrook work day in and day out?  Harris is largely doing the same thing he was here, just on another team.  Harkless is an inconsequential player, despite getting playing time.  No one is losing sleep over his development.

It's tough to blame it all on the franchise when there are so many unknowns.  There have certainly been big missteps but it's hard to assign all the blame in one area.

Yeah and you know what was the result of AG's first monster game of the season? Fournier leading the verbal criticism with Frank following mentioning ball movement and AG forcing things. That game was very efficient.

Mario's work ethic has never been an issue. I think he's very hard on himself.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Magicman28    189
40 minutes ago, Payton4thewin said:

We've been pretty patient with Gordon and i feel like that's paying off.  

We've been pretty patient with Payton and that hasn't paid off at all. 

Should have been more patient with oladipo.  Cashed him in at the wrong time.  

Harkless got squeezed out.  Shouldn't bother anyone.  Guys need minutes and he had no path to them.

Losing Harris shouldn't bother anyone too much.  The trade is the bad part. But he's fallen back to earth. Last 17 games he's at 16.1 ppg and 5.6 rebounds on 43.7% shooting overall. The three point shooting is still there.  You gotta figure that remains but he's not the 20ppg guy 10-3 record guy he was earlier.  He's the same guy we traded. 

I agree and maybe we learned from the Dipo mistake because that last great game AG had, seemed like Vogel decided to make him first option. That's what we need. Everyone needs to know their roles. We got guys who are deciding their own roles. That's on the coaching staff.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
ML6    151
52 minutes ago, Magicman28 said:

Mario's work ethic has never been an issue. I think he's very hard on himself.

You think.  You don't know.  That's my point.

31 minutes ago, Magicman28 said:

I agree and maybe we learned from the Dipo mistake because that last great game AG had, seemed like Vogel decided to make him first option. That's what we need. Everyone needs to know their roles. We got guys who are deciding their own roles. That's on the coaching staff.

Now I'm confused.  You post that the team is to blame for lack of player development.  I retort that it's not that black and white and that each player ultimately develops differently based on a variety of player-specific AND team-specific factors.  P4TW expands on that point, highlighting how each case is different.  You then agree with him but don't seem to agree with me.  I'm lost. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Magicman28    189
11 minutes ago, ML6 said:

You think.  You don't know.  That's my point.

Now I'm confused.  You post that the team is to blame for lack of player development.  I retort that it's not that black and white and that each player ultimately develops differently based on a variety of player-specific AND team-specific factors.  P4TW expands on that point, highlighting how each case is different.  You then agree with him but don't seem to agree with me.  I'm lost. 

His work ethic hasn't ever been questioned. He's been here for a few years now. We'd know. He won a award for his dedication in the gym. 

 

We lacked player development in Mario imo. We threw Dipo out there and other than Skiles benching him, he's played through his mistakes. Payton just isnt a starting PG. Not yet anyways. We let Fournier play through his mistakes.

We haven't done the same with Mario. 

  • Like 1
  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×