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?4thewin

2017-2018 Official Season Discussion Thread

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Murphy13    140
3 minutes ago, Payton4thewin said:

More defensive rebounds = higher defensive win shares if everything else is the same 

So if he was on our team there would be more rebounds for him to grab and therefore he'd have a higher DWS? I'm not sure that's how it works.  Especially since it would be a stretch to say that Curry would get more rebounds than EP on any team.  

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?4thewin    1,334
25 minutes ago, Murphy13 said:

So if he was on our team there would be more rebounds for him to grab and therefore he'd have a higher DWS? I'm not sure that's how it works.  Especially since it would be a stretch to say that Curry would get more rebounds than EP on any team.  

 

Thats literally how defensive win shares work

Im just saying if curry had more defensive rebounds he'd have a higher defensive win share thus i don't think  defensive win shares really measure a player's defensive value because i don't think higher defensive rebounds= higher defensive ability.  

I think box score based defensive measurements are the most flawed defensive measurement and all defensive measurements are flawed in some way.  However if you use them collectively along with actual observation you can come up with something substantial.  

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ML6    165
35 minutes ago, Murphy13 said:

So if he was on our team there would be more rebounds for him to grab and therefore he'd have a higher DWS? I'm not sure that's how it works. 

And this is why you have no credibility.  The past 24h have involved you needlessly disagreeing with people and then trying to create intentionally convoluted arguments so that in some dimension you might be right.  And after all that, you admit that you don't understand the meaning of a metric that you introduced into the conversation in the first place.  Incredible.

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?4thewin    1,334

 Just to clarify.  I'm not saying it's literally drebs+blocks+steals ÷possessions = dws. But dws use bball references estimated defensive rating where steals, blocks, and rebounds are heavily weighted along with the team defens ive numbers while that player is on the court.  This is why a guy like Andre Drummond consistently is near the top of the league in defensive win  shares despite being iffy (or at least disappointing? )  on defense. 

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Murphy13    140
27 minutes ago, Payton4thewin said:

 

Thats literally how defensive win shares work

Im just saying if curry had more defensive rebounds he'd have a higher defensive win share thus i don't think  defensive win shares really measure a player's defensive value because i don't think higher defensive rebounds= higher defensive ability.  

I think box score based defensive measurements are the most flawed defensive measurement and all defensive measurements are flawed in some way.  However if you use them collectively along with actual observation you can come up with something substantial.  

But there would be fewer rebounds to be had on our team so how would he get more and thus have a higher dws?

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?4thewin    1,334

 plus now that we're in an  era of actual player tracking i don't think metrics that take assumptions like "everyone is equally responsible for defensive results while they're on the floor" makes as much sense as just looking at player tracking defensive numbers in conjunction with on/ off numbers and actual game tape. 

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Murphy13    140
16 minutes ago, ML6 said:

And this is why you have no credibility.  The past 24h have involved you needlessly disagreeing with people and then trying to create intentionally convoluted arguments so that in some dimension you might be right.  And after all that, you admit that you don't understand the meaning of a metric that you introduced into the conversation in the first place.  Incredible.

Just stop. You still have no idea.

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?4thewin    1,334
18 minutes ago, Murphy13 said:

But there would be fewer rebounds to be had on our team so how would he get more and thus have a higher dws?

 Who the ***** cares? It's not paramount to your point or mine

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12 minutes ago, Payton4thewin said:

 Who the ***** cares? It's not paramount to your point or mine

Who cares about the stats anyway. All you have to do is watch the games and it's obvious that EP is not the starting PG that we need for the future. The modern NBA calls for a PG that is a threat to take and make the open outside shot at a decent percentage. Also a lot of PGs feast on EP.

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?4thewin    1,334

Here's what we have.  When Payton is on the floor we play our worst defense.  When Payton is on the bench we play our best defense.  http://on.nba.com/2EcJ4SZ

But that's not enough.  We need more context.  

Biyombo's defensive rating improves by 9 points when Payton is off the floor http://stats.nba.com/vs/advanced/#!?PlayerID=202687&VsPlayerID=203901

Vucevic's defensive rating improves by 12 points http://stats.nba.com/vs/advanced/#!?PlayerID=202696&VsPlayerID=203901

Speights defense rating improves by 6 points http://stats.nba.com/vs/advanced/#!?PlayerID=201578&VsPlayerID=203901

Gordon's defense improves by almost 8 points http://stats.nba.com/vs/advanced/#!?PlayerID=203932&VsPlayerID=203901

Fournier improves by almost 9 points http://stats.nba.com/vs/advanced/#!?PlayerID=203095&VsPlayerID=203901

And so on.  

Here's satoransky's numbers with Payton on the court vs off the court http://stats.nba.com/vs/#!?PlayerID=203107&VsPlayerID=203901&Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular Season&LastNGames=1

And here's video evidence 

 First basket Payton loses him completely. 

Second is switched onto speights

Third Payton leaves him open in the corner but helping when he shouldn't help. 

Fourth Payton screws up a box out and gives up a close basket

Fifth he loses satoransky in transition by helping when he didn't need to help and completely turning his back to his man 

6th probably on Fournier 

7th on Fournier

8th Augustin

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Magicfan1987    55

I can't believe people are arguing about whether or not Elf is a good defender. His defensive instincts and iq are terribly low. you can literally see him either hesitating and can't decide the correct defensive play to make or over compensate and risk a steal. He was amazing his first year but has some how gotten progressively worse. I guess getting obliterated by John Wall and Kemba Walker 8 times a year has ruined his confidence. Now Walls backup torches him . smh

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