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Fultz4thewin

2017-2018 Official Season Discussion Thread

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7 hours ago, Justin Jaudon said:

It's consistently amusing to me to hear people complain about us not tanking hard enough, not getting enough top picks. We got 3 top five picks in the first three years of our rebuild. We picked 2 very good players in Oladipo and Gordon with the first two, and it's looking like we might have picked a good player in Mario Hezonja. We drafted one guy who's already been an All-Star. Gordon certainly looks like he has that potential.

 

For the 8,000,000th time, this team's failure has not been, and never was, not tanking hard enough. That narrative is so flawed it's absurd. We had talent; multiple All-Star talent. We should have stopped the tanking exactly when we did. We had the horse we should have been running behind. But we Seabuscuit-ed him. We Seabuscuit-ed all of them. We trained our guys to lose, and they lost, regardless of how talented they were. So we sold Oladipo for pennies on the dollar, and now he's leading the 3rd best team in the East. We forced Gordon to switch positions in his 3rd year when he should have been getting ready to break out. We blew our wad on bench garbage and one-dimensional players.

 

It is absolutely myopic to see what this team has done, where it is now, and blame that on not sucking hard enough. We didn't fail to lose, guys. We have been, for now the third straight season, failing to break free of a broken culture. I'm not saying we shouldn't have tanked those first three years. We should have. I'm saying we shouldn't have panicked when things didn't turn around on a dime. We did exactly what a tanking team should do. We sucked, acquired high-level talent through the draft and through trades of hold-over assets. It wasn't tanking we failed at. It was the part that comes after tanking that we failed at. I am utterly convinced that had we stuck it out after the Skiles year - had Skiles put on his big girl panties and Hennigan kept his cool - we would be where Indiana is now. A top 3 team in the East. Put Oladipo (and Sabonis) back on this team. Have us throw FA money at Darren Collison or Tyreke Evens or George Hill or Jeff Teague. Have us in the third year of a coach who improved our record by 10 games in his only season. Have us not give up on Mario Hezonja. A lineup of Tyreke-Oladipo-Evan-AG-Vuc, with maybe a bench led by Payton-Mario-Sabonis-Dedmon. Tell me that's not as good as what Indiana has. Tell me that's not enticing to a big name free agent. Tell me we failed at tanking. No. We succeeded at tanking. We failed when it came time for winning, guys.

Multiple all-star talent? Wtf are you talking about?

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11 hours ago, ?4thewin said:

Every year we've picked early we've won little and lost big at the end of the year.  

To pick earlier we'd have to win none and lose all over the last quarter of the season.  

Its extremely difficult to win none and lose all over many games.  

Just have to have the right circumstances (most always means injuries adn team in rebuild) and strategy (i.e. trades at all trade deadline).   Philly has done it in the past and Memphis (even New York) is doing it this year.  Just read Nowitski's comments on tanking who said Dallas will play hard but said certain teams ARE tanking.  Players know! We easily could tank over the last 14 games but I do not think we will.  That would  be 1-6 and 1-6.  Due to our injuries we qualify for right circumstances this year (unlike previous years) but we don't have the strategy.  You have to believe it is the right way and commit to tank and I think we lack that belief/commitment, right or wrong as that may be!

 

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I am resigned to accept that we will not tank and it IS a deep draft, so whoever we get pick 1-9 or we trade the pick for 2 in the teens should be somebody that will help our team. I'm even more excited about the idea of trading Vuc and playing a whole season with defense at the center position and see how we do with that for a change.

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Just now, ROCK LEGENDS PHOTOGRAPHERS said:

I am resigned to accept that we will not tank and it IS a deep draft, so whoever we get pick 1-9 or we trade the pick for 2 in the teens should be somebody that will help our team. I'm even more excited about the idea of trading Vuc and playing a whole season with defense at the center position and see how we do with that for a change.

yes and yes

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8 hours ago, Justin Jaudon said:

It's consistently amusing to me to hear people complain about us not tanking hard enough, not getting enough top picks. We got 3 top five picks in the first three years of our rebuild. We picked 2 very good players in Oladipo and Gordon with the first two, and it's looking like we might have picked a good player in Mario Hezonja. We drafted one guy who's already been an All-Star. Gordon certainly looks like he has that potential.

 

For the 8,000,000th time, this team's failure has not been, and never was, not tanking hard enough. That narrative is so flawed it's absurd. We had talent; multiple All-Star talent. We should have stopped the tanking exactly when we did. We had the horse we should have been running behind. But we Seabuscuit-ed him. We Seabuscuit-ed all of them. We trained our guys to lose, and they lost, regardless of how talented they were. So we sold Oladipo for pennies on the dollar, and now he's leading the 3rd best team in the East. We forced Gordon to switch positions in his 3rd year when he should have been getting ready to break out. We blew our wad on bench garbage and one-dimensional players.

 

It is absolutely myopic to see what this team has done, where it is now, and blame that on not sucking hard enough. We didn't fail to lose, guys. We have been, for now the third straight season, failing to break free of a broken culture. I'm not saying we shouldn't have tanked those first three years. We should have. I'm saying we shouldn't have panicked when things didn't turn around on a dime. We did exactly what a tanking team should do. We sucked, acquired high-level talent through the draft and through trades of hold-over assets. It wasn't tanking we failed at. It was the part that comes after tanking that we failed at. I am utterly convinced that had we stuck it out after the Skiles year - had Skiles put on his big girl panties and Hennigan kept his cool - we would be where Indiana is now. A top 3 team in the East. Put Oladipo (and Sabonis) back on this team. Have us throw FA money at Darren Collison or Tyreke Evens or George Hill or Jeff Teague. Have us in the third year of a coach who improved our record by 10 games in his only season. Have us not give up on Mario Hezonja. A lineup of Tyreke-Oladipo-Evan-AG-Vuc, with maybe a bench led by Payton-Mario-Sabonis-Dedmon. Tell me that's not as good as what Indiana has. Tell me that's not enticing to a big name free agent. Tell me we failed at tanking. No. We succeeded at tanking. We failed when it came time for winning, guys.

With all your suggestions on what we should have done and did not do means we now have work to do.  I like the nucleus of our roster but there is absolutely NO reason not to try to get the best pick we can this year especially with the players available at the top  Due to our injuries not our roster we have that chance.  With only 14 games left it won't take much.  Just ask yourself who you would rather have on the roster next year.  If you are Ok with Carter, one of the two Bridges, or Sexton, play hard.  I am in the camp that thinks one of the other 7 would make us better and the hgher the draft pick the better so  I say TANK and tank hard.

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3 minutes ago, Originalticketholder said:

With all your suggestions on what we should have done and did not do means we now have work to do.  I like the nucleus of our roster but there is absolutely NO reason not to try to get the best pick we can this year especially with the players available at the top  Due to our injuries not our roster we have that chance.  With only 14 games left it won't take much.  Just ask yourself who you would rather have on the roster next year.  If you are Ok with Carter, one of the two Bridges, or Sexton, play hard.  I am in the camp that thinks one of the other 7 would make us better and the hgher the draft pick the better so  I say TANK and tank hard.

Unfortunately we won't tank and we have several games against lottery teams that will left to play. On the bright side, there IS a lot of talent in the 1st 9 picks.

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9 minutes ago, ROCK LEGENDS PHOTOGRAPHERS said:

I am resigned to accept that we will not tank and it IS a deep draft, so whoever we get pick 1-9 or we trade the pick for 2 in the teens should be somebody that will help our team. I'm even more excited about the idea of trading Vuc and playing a whole season with defense at the center position and see how we do with that for a change.

Agreed and we will get what we deserve.  Patience is a virtue and we are probbly 2-3 years away from competing with the Boston's, Philly's, Toronto's (East only) of the NBA.  Need to get to the point where we have cap money to pursue FA's to upgrade the roster.  Then develop our players and keep them!

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2 hours ago, magicblue said:

Multiple all-star talent? Wtf are you talking about?

Oladipo has already proven to be an All-Star. I'm confident Aaron Gordon will be an All-Star soon enough (though it will take his team getting out of the cellar). He's a 22-year-old averaging 18-8-2 while sharing the ball with two other guys who get just as many shots. He's a super hard worker who has already shown an ability and drive to improve his game dramatically. He's a project-able All-Star talent.

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1 hour ago, Originalticketholder said:

With all your suggestions on what we should have done and did not do means we now have work to do.  I like the nucleus of our roster but there is absolutely NO reason not to try to get the best pick we can this year especially with the players available at the top  Due to our injuries not our roster we have that chance.  With only 14 games left it won't take much.  Just ask yourself who you would rather have on the roster next year.  If you are Ok with Carter, one of the two Bridges, or Sexton, play hard.  I am in the camp that thinks one of the other 7 would make us better and the hgher the draft pick the better so  I say TANK and tank hard.

I think this is an entirely separate question. We clearly ARE tanking right now. Gordon and Fournier are being held out. Vuc was held out for probably longer than necessary. The only way for us to tank harder is to actively try to lose on the floor. That isn't going to - and shouldn't - happen. I don't see much point in trying to out-tank Memphis and Phoenix, because we aren't catching those teams. I think there's only 2 guys who might be worth tanking for (Doncic and Ayton). 3-10 are probably not separated by much, not enough to get in a tizzy over, anyway.

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7 minutes ago, Justin Jaudon said:

I think this is an entirely separate question. We clearly ARE tanking right now. Gordon and Fournier are being held out. Vuc was held out for probably longer than necessary. The only way for us to tank harder is to actively try to lose on the floor. That isn't going to - and shouldn't - happen. I don't see much point in trying to out-tank Memphis and Phoenix, because we aren't catching those teams. I think there's only 2 guys who might be worth tanking for (Doncic and Ayton). 3-10 are probably not separated by much, not enough to get in a tizzy over, anyway.

Keeping in mind having the worst record does not guarantee the top pick and the lower you are the better odds of grabbing 1 & 2 are. I don't think we have to worry about that because I think we'll finish 7-9th.

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8 minutes ago, ROCK LEGENDS PHOTOGRAPHERS said:

Keeping in mind having the worst record does not guarantee the top pick and the lower you are the better odds of grabbing 1 & 2 are. I don't think we have to worry about that because I think we'll finish 7-9th.

We'd have to do quite a bit to end up 9th. Basically, every team with a possibility of catching us would have to. That's very unlikely. My guess, just based on averages, is that we'll end up 6th in the rankings. That's a difference of about 10% in chances of getting a 1 or 2 (my math may be wrong there; I'm a writer, Jim, not a mathematician). Not nothing, but not worth screaming over.

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