Henny has been fired!

[South_Aussie_Magic 90]

You're missing his point. Nobody with their head on straight will ever argue that a lower pick is better than a higher pick. However, the draft should be treated as one method of improving the team, not the only method.

 

Don't feel like I'm missing the point. Of course there can be multiple ways to build a team but they're all tempered by a complex set of situational, historical and chance related circumstances. Without all teams and circumstances being equal, the one defining factor of success is either generational talent or multiple stars. It just seems to escape reason to argue that it shouldn't be at least TRIED if the franchise's goal is to win a championship.

 

The whole model and rhetoric relating to sustainable success is predicated on actually having some defining success first, followed by being able to maximise it and then retain it well enough and long enough to unearth another generation. Obviously, Hennigan sold himself on replicating the SA model while looking down at the Mavs model. Or the Heat model. It probably doesn't help that we don't have the pulling power of the Heat (but how sustainable will this be heading into the future), or either SA's or Dallas' previous success. We have to start somewhere, and it won't come again til we get our guy.

 

It's just so simple. When they CAN put themselves into that situation they SHOULD. Clearly this year was just a total s**tfest and we don't even know if this draft will produce multiple career long all stars or just a long list of pretty good players. As scouting gets better surely the well of opportunities to snag guys who were drafted way too low for their value won't exactly be more abundant. As P4TW said, we can't just hope that the other teams will be dumber than our guys. We need our option clear 1, 1A or at least 1B very soon or it won't matter what the Magic choose to do. We'll just be watching a team suck for ages again.

 

The reason I keep advocating this path, not actually rooting for losses, so much as feeling that noone in their right mind is going to sign here as a free agent willfully. We have no Riley-type (we don't even have a Cuban and he can't attract anything), we have no good-vibe culture, little history and no 1, 1a or 1b to advocate for us. This is Ground Zero. If Aaron Gordon and Mario hit their primes here as the best players on the team then our ceiling over the next 10 years is low.

[Fultz4thewin 2,464]

You're missing his point. Nobody with their head on straight will ever argue that a lower pick is better than a higher pick. However, the draft should be treated as one method of improving the team, not the only method.

 

 

Couldn't we just use Dallas post title? Their plan was to clear space and go after a variety of superstar or superstar-ish players. They had a solid market, no tax, good owner, winning culture to sell. They struck out and signed oj mayo as a place holder, then monta, then Parsons and rondo, then Wes Matthews and deron Williams, then Barnes.

 

I don't really know what they were supposed to do differently. I'm not sure tanking was even really an option for them until this year. But it shows how fickle building through free agency can be.

[magicblue 315]

You're missing his point. Nobody with their head on straight will ever argue that a lower pick is better than a higher pick. However, the draft should be treated as one method of improving the team, not the only method.

 

I don't think anyone has insinuated or suggested that. But tying big money up in role players that make us mediocre and won't attract blue chip FA's, at the expense of highly favorable draft position, isn't the answer either.

[Franchise408 116]

I don't think anyone has insinuated or suggested that. But tying big money up in role players that make us mediocre and won't attract blue chip FA's, at the expense of highly favorable draft position, isn't the answer either.

 

It is absolutely insinuated when the entire philosophy being pushed for is "purposefully suck as bad as possible for as long as possible so a superstar can magically fall into your lap"

 

At some point you need to actually start building something, and with THREE top 5 picks over the last few years, we are well past time to start building something.

 

But of course, we didn't do that, instead we had a GM that traded away the best of those top 5 picks for a middling vet (ironically, a move that was PRAISED in this forum by all the same people who are anti-getting vets at the expense of young talent), who didn't fit with this team so we traded HIM away for a lower quality talent than we already had, AND a lower draft pick in a later draft to boot.

 

We have a GM that trades away established vets like Reddick for unestablished talent in Harris, and then when that unestablished talent becomes an asset, trades him away for literally zero return.

 

We have a GM who gives huge ass contracts to middle of the pack at best talent in Fournier and Biyombo. But yea, giving that same money to someone like Barnes, Iguodala, or Bledsoe is bad...

 

And now we don't have that GM anymore. Thank god. But unfortunately, due to his utter incompetence and failed philosophy of "be passive, don't do anything, and if you suck long enough maybe something will magically happen", we have to start all over from scratch AGAIN, wasting 5 years of our time.

[magicblue 315]

It is absolutely insinuated when the entire philosophy being pushed for is "purposefully suck as bad as possible for as long as possible so a superstar can magically fall into your lap"

 

At some point you need to actually start building something, and with THREE top 5 picks over the last few years, we are well past time to start building something.

 

But of course, we didn't do that, instead we had a GM that traded away the best of those top 5 picks for a middling vet (ironically, a move that was PRAISED in this forum by all the same people who are anti-getting vets at the expense of young talent), who didn't fit with this team so we traded HIM away for a lower quality talent than we already had, AND a lower draft pick in a later draft to boot.

 

We have a GM that trades away established vets like Reddick for unestablished talent in Harris, and then when that unestablished talent becomes an asset, trades him away for literally zero return.

 

We have a GM who gives huge ass contracts to middle of the pack at best talent in Fournier and Biyombo. But yea, giving that same money to someone like Barnes, Iguodala, or Bledsoe is bad...

 

And now we don't have that GM anymore. Thank god. But unfortunately, due to his utter incompetence and failed philosophy of "be passive, don't do anything, and if you suck long enough maybe something will magically happen", we have to start all over from scratch AGAIN, wasting 5 years of our time.

 

And when starting over again you still don't sign mediocre players to build around at the expense of draft position. Not when you are where we are which is rock bottom. You pointing out the mistakes of the previous GM doesn't change what the process should be moving forward. You obviously don't get that.

[A Better DJ & Photographer 453]

I have a groove in my head from scratching it over the Biyombo contract. We need to find a taker for him and sign a decent bench 5 that is paid like a decent bench 5. It would have been awesome to keep Dedmon.

[Fultz4thewin 2,464]

It is absolutely insinuated when the entire philosophy being pushed for is "purposefully suck as bad as possible for as long as possible so a superstar can magically fall into your lap"

 

At some point you need to actually start building something, and with THREE top 5 picks over the last few years, we are well past time to start building something.

 

But of course, we didn't do that, instead we had a GM that traded away the best of those top 5 picks for a middling vet (ironically, a move that was PRAISED in this forum by all the same people who are anti-getting vets at the expense of young talent), who didn't fit with this team so we traded HIM away for a lower quality talent than we already had, AND a lower draft pick in a later draft to boot.

 

We have a GM that trades away established vets like Reddick for unestablished talent in Harris, and then when that unestablished talent becomes an asset, trades him away for literally zero return.

 

We have a GM who gives huge ass contracts to middle of the pack at best talent in Fournier and Biyombo. But yea, giving that same money to someone like Barnes, Iguodala, or Bledsoe is bad...

 

And now we don't have that GM anymore. Thank god. But unfortunately, due to his utter incompetence and failed philosophy of "be passive, don't do anything, and if you suck long enough maybe something will magically happen", we have to start all over from scratch AGAIN, wasting 5 years of our time.

 

1. you keep using words like "magically" as if we're talking about infinitesimal numbers. that's disingenuous.

2. we didn't praise the move. we freaked out a bit then talked ourselves into it with the premise that his rim protection would be more valuable than oladipo's perimeter D (due to effort or just general decline it wasn't).

3. We traded an expiring contract for harris, it was a good gamble. we traded harris for nothing. that was a bad trade.

4. giving Barnes 4/94.4 would be bad when we got Fournier for 4/68 over those same years. Fournier is probably a 4/48, 5/60 player that we got for 5/85 due to a market that probably would have paid him 4/74 or 4/80 knowing what Crabbe got.

Biyombo was a panic move that hit when Mozgov and mahinmi got 16 million per year and noah got 18+per year. When you have to overpay someone, might as well overpay the guy with upside. Unfortunately, he didn't display that upside more than a handful of times this year.

5. we still couldn't pay Bledsoe no matter how many times you include him.

6. iguodala would be a much worse signing than Fournier. Iguodala is an aging vet who can afford to coast on a great team and dive into his reserves as needed in the playoffs. He's not a guy you can count on for 28 mpg of high level play 70+ games per year.

7. The philosophy was never what you say it is. You're setting up a strawman argument. The philosophy is "obtain young players and high draft picks. develop the young players. try to find market inefficiencies. maintain long term cap flexibility so that if you can find a few players to build around you can supplement the team with free agent talent." that philosophy was abandoned when we fired Vaughn. it was abandoned further when we hired skiles and began the shift to "Payton, Gordon, Fournier, Vucevic, good enough, lets make the playoffs now".

[Fultz4thewin 2,464]

I have a groove in my head from scratching it over the Biyombo contract. We need to find a taker for him and sign a decent bench 5 that is paid like a decent bench 5. It would have been awesome to keep Dedmon.

 

Its great that Dedmon is playing well in San Antonio but he wouldn't do that here. We needed more from that spot. San Antonio maxes out their people. This is no different than Boban last year. It's not like he was a young player finally coming into his own, dude is almost 28.

 

we just have to make more of an effort to put Biyombo in a position to succeed. Its not a talent thing. its a coaching thing.

[Franchise408 116]

1. you keep using words like "magically" as if we're talking about infinitesimal numbers. that's disingenuous.

2. we didn't praise the move. we freaked out a bit then talked ourselves into it with the premise that his rim protection would be more valuable than oladipo's perimeter D (due to effort or just general decline it wasn't).

3. We traded an expiring contract for harris, it was a good gamble. we traded harris for nothing. that was a bad trade.

4. giving Barnes 4/94.4 would be bad when we got Fournier for 4/68 over those same years. Fournier is probably a 4/48, 5/60 player that we got for 5/85 due to a market that probably would have paid him 4/74 or 4/80 knowing what Crabbe got.

Biyombo was a panic move that hit when Mozgov and mahinmi got 16 million per year and noah got 18+per year. When you have to overpay someone, might as well overpay the guy with upside. Unfortunately, he didn't display that upside more than a handful of times this year.

5. we still couldn't pay Bledsoe no matter how many times you include him.

6. iguodala would be a much worse signing than Fournier. Iguodala is an aging vet who can afford to coast on a great team and dive into his reserves as needed in the playoffs. He's not a guy you can count on for 28 mpg of high level play 70+ games per year.

7. The philosophy was never what you say it is. You're setting up a strawman argument. The philosophy is "obtain young players and high draft picks. develop the young players. try to find market inefficiencies. maintain long term cap flexibility so that if you can find a few players to build around you can supplement the team with free agent talent." that philosophy was abandoned when we fired Vaughn. it was abandoned further when we hired skiles and began the shift to "Payton, Gordon, Fournier, Vucevic, good enough, lets make the playoffs now".

 

We tried it your way. It was a complete and colossal failure.

 

We had not one, not two, but THREE top 5 picks over the course of this rebuild, PLUS another top 10 that we added in as well. THAT IS ENOUGH ASSETS TO BEGIN BUILDING AROUND. We did NOT. And now, because of a passive, do nothing and tank for draft positioning philosophy, all while saving cap space to spend on nobody, we are right where we were 5 years ago when this whole process began.

 

And if your argument is that "Oladipo, Hezonja, Payton, and Gordon aren't quality enough players to begin building around", then you FURTHER my point about the futility of "tanking for draft position".

 

For the millionth time:

 

IT. REQUIRES. UNRELIABLE. AND. INCONSISTENT. FACTORS. THAT. ARE. OUT. OF. ANYBODY'S. CONTROL.

 

1. We are not talking about infinitesimal numbers. We are talking about unreliable and inconsistent numbers that are nothing more than an odds against you gamble, one that sets your franchise back even further if you don't win that gamble. And the more and more you lose that gamble, the more and more your franchise falls deeper into the hole. Kinda like real gambling when you put your life savings on the line in an attempt to win back what you've already lost.

2. There was PLENTY of defense of the move for Oladipo. The fact that you even talked yourself into it flies in the face of the very argument you are trying to make. Ibaka is a mid line veteran. Oladipo was a young, developing asset. The kind we TANK SEASONS to get. And yet we traded him away for the same type of mid line talent that you are blasting me for wanting to bring in to SUPPLEMENT our young talent with. Ibaka would have been fine to bring in to SUPPLEMENT our talent with. Not in PLACE of our talent.

3. Which means the result of the Reddick trade was trading away an expiring contract of a valuable player for nothing.

4. So it's okay when we over pay for underwhelming talent when it's Fournier? But not when it's someone like a Bledsoe, Barnes, Iguodala, or Batum? Because seriously... what exactly is Fournier contributing to this franchise for the money he is receiving? How is he more beneficial to this team than any of those guys? Because he's definitely not a building block sort of talent, and he's definitely not cheap...

5. We could if we didn't overpay Fournier and Biyombo. And if the Suns matched, then so be it. At least we were trying. Because right now, we're not.

6. You say that, but I also say that Iguodala is also a valuable veteran who could have helped to teach and guide much of our young talent while they developed.

7. With Payton, Gordon, Dipo, Hezonjia, Fournier, and Vuc, the goal SHOULD HAVE been playoffs. That's 3 top 5 picks, a top 10 pick, a guy getting paid almost all star money, and a center not all THAT far removed from the top of the pack, in year 5 of the rebuilding plan. But it wasn't, because the front office took a passive, do nothing approach to team building, and it was a complete failure.

 

The fact that we've had so many top picks over the last few years with nothing but a couple dunk contests to show for it is exactly the point about the crap shoot that is the NBA draft, and exactly proves the point that you shouldn't "tank" for draft positioning.

[Fultz4thewin 2,464]

We tried it your way. It was a complete and colossal failure.

 

We had not one, not two, but THREE top 5 picks over the course of this rebuild, PLUS another top 10 that we added in as well. THAT IS ENOUGH ASSETS TO BEGIN BUILDING AROUND. We did NOT. And now, because of a passive, do nothing and tank for draft positioning philosophy, all while saving cap space to spend on nobody, we are right where we were 5 years ago when this whole process began.

 

And if your argument is that "Oladipo, Hezonja, Payton, and Gordon aren't quality enough players to begin building around", then you FURTHER my point about the futility of "tanking for draft position".

 

For the millionth time:

 

IT. REQUIRES. UNRELIABLE. AND. INCONSISTENT. FACTORS. THAT. ARE. OUT. OF. ANYBODY'S. CONTROL.

 

1. We are not talking about infinitesimal numbers. We are talking about unreliable and inconsistent numbers that are nothing more than an odds against you gamble, one that sets your franchise back even further if you don't win that gamble. And the more and more you lose that gamble, the more and more your franchise falls deeper into the hole. Kinda like real gambling when you put your life savings on the line in an attempt to win back what you've already lost.

2. There was PLENTY of defense of the move for Oladipo. The fact that you even talked yourself into it flies in the face of the very argument you are trying to make. Ibaka is a mid line veteran. Oladipo was a young, developing asset. The kind we TANK SEASONS to get. And yet we traded him away for the same type of mid line talent that you are blasting me for wanting to bring in to SUPPLEMENT our young talent with. Ibaka would have been fine to bring in to SUPPLEMENT our talent with. Not in PLACE of our talent.

3. Which means the result of the Reddick trade was trading away an expiring contract of a valuable player for nothing.

4. So it's okay when we over pay for underwhelming talent when it's Fournier? But not when it's someone like a Bledsoe, Barnes, Iguodala, or Batum? Because seriously... what exactly is Fournier contributing to this franchise for the money he is receiving? How is he more beneficial to this team than any of those guys? Because he's definitely not a building block sort of talent, and he's definitely not cheap...

5. We could if we didn't overpay Fournier and Biyombo. And if the Suns matched, then so be it. At least we were trying. Because right now, we're not.

6. You say that, but I also say that Iguodala is also a valuable veteran who could have helped to teach and guide much of our young talent while they developed.

7. With Payton, Gordon, Dipo, Hezonjia, Fournier, and Vuc, the goal SHOULD HAVE been playoffs. That's 3 top 5 picks, a top 10 pick, a guy getting paid almost all star money, and a center not all THAT far removed from the top of the pack, in year 5 of the rebuilding plan. But it wasn't, because the front office took a passive, do nothing approach to team building, and it was a complete failure.

 

The fact that we've had so many top picks over the last few years with nothing but a couple dunk contests to show for it is exactly the point about the crap shoot that is the NBA draft, and exactly proves the point that you shouldn't "tank" for draft positioning.

 

 

We couldn't sign Bledsoe. He wasn't ever available. Batum never hit the market. He negotiated exclusively with Charlotte.

 

Do you really think batum and Barnes are 30 million better than Fournier? I don't even like Fournier all that much but he's alright for what we paid.

 

They goal should have been win as many games as possible with our young players. If we wanted to trade oladipo or Harris, fine but it should have been for pieces that were more complimentary.

 

Yes. We tanked and it failed. There are no guarantees to rebuilds. But what i can tell you is if we signed a bunch of average players we'd be in the exact same place with a team that has no future and is just treading water, delaying the inevitable like someone on life support.

[South_Aussie_Magic 90]

We tried it your way. It was a complete and colossal failure.

 

We had not one, not two, but THREE top 5 picks over the course of this rebuild, PLUS another top 10 that we added in as well. THAT IS ENOUGH ASSETS TO BEGIN BUILDING AROUND. We did NOT. And now, because of a passive, do nothing and tank for draft positioning philosophy, all while saving cap space to spend on nobody, we are right where we were 5 years ago when this whole process began.

 

And if your argument is that "Oladipo, Hezonja, Payton, and Gordon aren't quality enough players to begin building around", then you FURTHER my point about the futility of "tanking for draft position".

 

For the millionth time:

 

IT. REQUIRES. UNRELIABLE. AND. INCONSISTENT. FACTORS. THAT. ARE. OUT. OF. ANYBODY'S. CONTROL.

 

1. We are not talking about infinitesimal numbers. We are talking about unreliable and inconsistent numbers that are nothing more than an odds against you gamble, one that sets your franchise back even further if you don't win that gamble. And the more and more you lose that gamble, the more and more your franchise falls deeper into the hole. Kinda like real gambling when you put your life savings on the line in an attempt to win back what you've already lost.

2. There was PLENTY of defense of the move for Oladipo. The fact that you even talked yourself into it flies in the face of the very argument you are trying to make. Ibaka is a mid line veteran. Oladipo was a young, developing asset. The kind we TANK SEASONS to get. And yet we traded him away for the same type of mid line talent that you are blasting me for wanting to bring in to SUPPLEMENT our young talent with. Ibaka would have been fine to bring in to SUPPLEMENT our talent with. Not in PLACE of our talent.

3. Which means the result of the Reddick trade was trading away an expiring contract of a valuable player for nothing.

4. So it's okay when we over pay for underwhelming talent when it's Fournier? But not when it's someone like a Bledsoe, Barnes, Iguodala, or Batum? Because seriously... what exactly is Fournier contributing to this franchise for the money he is receiving? How is he more beneficial to this team than any of those guys? Because he's definitely not a building block sort of talent, and he's definitely not cheap...

5. We could if we didn't overpay Fournier and Biyombo. And if the Suns matched, then so be it. At least we were trying. Because right now, we're not.

6. You say that, but I also say that Iguodala is also a valuable veteran who could have helped to teach and guide much of our young talent while they developed.

7. With Payton, Gordon, Dipo, Hezonjia, Fournier, and Vuc, the goal SHOULD HAVE been playoffs. That's 3 top 5 picks, a top 10 pick, a guy getting paid almost all star money, and a center not all THAT far removed from the top of the pack, in year 5 of the rebuilding plan. But it wasn't, because the front office took a passive, do nothing approach to team building, and it was a complete failure.

 

The fact that we've had so many top picks over the last few years with nothing but a couple dunk contests to show for it is exactly the point about the crap shoot that is the NBA draft, and exactly proves the point that you shouldn't "tank" for draft positioning.

 

Predicating an entire offseason on free agency and winning trades though is also equally unreliable and inconsistent though. And I guess in a sense, we did try that way last offseason too. And it failed. I don't think anyone of us would have been that unhappy if we managed to get one or some of the guys you mentioned. I personally love those guys. They wouldn't take us anywhere but honestly I probably would have rather rooted for them over Fournier or Biyombo. But obviously those guys were not available to us either way.

 

The hole our favourite team is in right now is going to be tough to get out of without some luck. I haven't had so little confidence in the future since 1999. But I doubt we are pulling a T-Mac out of the rabbit's hat this time.

[Fultz4thewin 2,464]

You know what invalidates his viewpoint?

 

Every single time i can think of whenever a top player forces a trade that team asks for young players and draft picks in return, not solid vets.