The real question: Does Martins need to go too?

[Franchise408 116]

Who in FA do you think we could've realistically signed that would've made us a playoff team?

 

 

Edit: Oh wait, Iguodala. Nevermind.

 

I'll concede the Iguodala move on one point - I was mistaken in my history and was mistakenly remembering the Howard trade as when we had already drafted Oladipo. Iguodala could have been paired with Oladipo, but we didn't have him at that point, so sure, trading for a vet on an expiring deal wouldn't have done much to build for the future.

 

However, we haven't been able to pair our young talent - which we have - with any supplemental talent, and as such, we continue to waste away in the lottery spinning our wheels, not doing anything.

 

Yet strangely all those franchises who have succeeded through the draft, again, have been the franchises who have won the championships in the last 20+ years :unsure:/>

 

The highest draft pick on Golden State is a #7. We've had 3 picks higher than that with nothing to show for it. Klay was not a top 10 pick, Draymond was not even a first round pick.

 

The Spurs haven't had a lottery pick in over a decade. Their last lottery pick is now retired, and they are still a top contending team with a bunch of low picks.

 

Miami built their championships around superstar free agents. Without Shaq, or later LeBron and Bosh to help out Wade, Wade has zero championships and not much success in the league.

 

Nowsitzki was a #9 overall pick for Dallas. Again, we have had far higher picks than that with nothing to show for it.

 

Kobe Bryant was not even a top 10 pick, and was acquired by the Lakers for Vlade Divac. They then paired him with a superstar in Shaq via free agency, and later, Kobe led the Lakers to 2 more championships with free agent acquisitions such as Pau Gasol and Lamar Odom.

 

The Pistons won their championship without the aid of a top draft pick. Their roster was built of castoffs from other teams and assembled to a championship and a 2nd Finals appearance.

 

So of the past 20 years, the only teams that were molded by the "tank" philosophy of sucking for the highest possible picks, were Cleveland (drafting Kyrie, trading Wiggins for Love), Chicago (drafting Jordan and Pippen), and kinda sorta the Spurs, who didn't "tank", their all time center went out that season with injury, and so their pick of another all time player was instantly paired with a returning all time center to create a very dominate duo.

 

You have the Lakers (5 championships), the Pistons (1 championship), the Mavericks (1 championship), the Warriors (1 championship), and the Heat (3 championships), who were built outside of the draft.

 

That's 11 of the last 20 championships that were won without the draft.

 

And that's giving you the 5 Spurs championships which are more of an anomaly to the whole "tank" philosophy, as the core of that team, outside of Duncan, were all low drafted players. Ginoboli, 2nd round. Parker, 28th overall. Leonard, 15th overall.

 

So really, that's 16 of the last 20 championships that haven't built via the "tank" philosophy, and haven't needed to "suck" for higher draft picks to win championships.

 

That leaves you with the last 2 Bulls championships (Jordan and Pippen), the Celtics (trading high picks for Allen and Garnett), and the Cavaliers (drafting Kyrie and trading Wiggins for Love)

 

Hennigan has had the draft picks. And I think that most of us would even agree that he's done as well as possible with those picks. So what's missing? Putting the talent around them.

 

As every single one of these championship franchises have done. They don't continue to tank. They draft a guy, and then put talent around him.

 

The last 20 years of championship history completely contradict your entire "tank" philosophy, yet you continue spouting it as if it's some kind of competent and viable team building strategy.

 

You are wrong.

[Fultz4thewin 2,464]

I'll concede the Iguodala move on one point - I was mistaken in my history and was mistakenly remembering the Howard trade as when we had already drafted Oladipo. Iguodala could have been paired with Oladipo, but we didn't have him at that point, so sure, trading for a vet on an expiring deal wouldn't have done much to build for the future.

 

However, we haven't been able to pair our young talent - which we have - with any supplemental talent, and as such, we continue to waste away in the lottery spinning our wheels, not doing anything.

 

 

 

The highest draft pick on Golden State is a #7. We've had 3 picks higher than that with nothing to show for it. Klay was not a top 10 pick, Draymond was not even a first round pick.

 

The Spurs haven't had a lottery pick in over a decade. Their last lottery pick is now retired, and they are still a top contending team with a bunch of low picks.

 

Miami built their championships around superstar free agents. Without Shaq, or later LeBron and Bosh to help out Wade, Wade has zero championships and not much success in the league.

 

Nowsitzki was a #9 overall pick for Dallas. Again, we have had far higher picks than that with nothing to show for it.

 

Kobe Bryant was not even a top 10 pick, and was acquired by the Lakers for Vlade Divac. They then paired him with a superstar in Shaq via free agency, and later, Kobe led the Lakers to 2 more championships with free agent acquisitions such as Pau Gasol and Lamar Odom.

 

The Pistons won their championship without the aid of a top draft pick. Their roster was built of castoffs from other teams and assembled to a championship and a 2nd Finals appearance.

 

So of the past 20 years, the only teams that were molded by the "tank" philosophy of sucking for the highest possible picks, were Cleveland (drafting Kyrie, trading Wiggins for Love), Chicago (drafting Jordan and Pippen), and kinda sorta the Spurs, who didn't "tank", their all time center went out that season with injury, and so their pick of another all time player was instantly paired with a returning all time center to create a very dominate duo.

 

You have the Lakers (5 championships), the Pistons (1 championship), the Mavericks (1 championship), the Warriors (1 championship), and the Heat (3 championships), who were built outside of the draft.

 

That's 11 of the last 20 championships that were won without the draft.

 

And that's giving you the 5 Spurs championships which are more of an anomaly to the whole "tank" philosophy, as the core of that team, outside of Duncan, were all low drafted players. Ginoboli, 2nd round. Parker, 28th overall. Leonard, 15th overall.

 

So really, that's 16 of the last 20 championships that haven't built via the "tank" philosophy, and haven't needed to "suck" for higher draft picks to win championships.

 

That leaves you with the last 2 Bulls championships (Jordan and Pippen), the Celtics (trading high picks for Allen and Garnett), and the Cavaliers (drafting Kyrie and trading Wiggins for Love)

 

Hennigan has had the draft picks. And I think that most of us would even agree that he's done as well as possible with those picks. So what's missing? Putting the talent around them.

 

As every single one of these championship franchises have done. They don't continue to tank. They draft a guy, and then put talent around him.

 

The last 20 years of championship history completely contradict your entire "tank" philosophy, yet you continue spouting it as if it's some kind of competent and viable team building strategy.

 

You are wrong.

 

 

It took 15 trips to the lottery in 16 years before golden state lucked out with Steph

[JJZFL 618]

..........

The last 20 years of championship history completely contradict your entire "tank" philosophy, yet you continue spouting it as if it's some kind of competent and viable team building strategy.

 

You are wrong.

 

Truly great post. Tanking has become like a religion in here, despite the fact that it often doesn't work and is extremely high risk. We've built by far the worst team in Magic history over the past five years following this strategy, and despite the fact that it's obviously failed, people just can't envision trying anything else.

[Franchise408 116]

It took 15 trips to the lottery in 16 years before golden state lucked out with Steph

 

Yes. 15 years, and it still took luck.

 

So tell me again how "tanking" is a viable strategy? You just proved my point.

[JJZFL 618]

It took 15 trips to the lottery in 16 years before golden state lucked out with Steph

Really proves his point. The 15 lottery trips didn't get them anywhere except perpetually being terrible. Curry was a seventh pick.

[Franchise408 116]

That's literally your version of team building. Suck for decades on the off chance you finally luck into an all time great player.

 

I'd say "thank god you're not our GM", but you basically are with Hennigan at the helm

[Fultz4thewin 2,464]

Really proves his point. The 15 lottery trips didn't get them anywhere except perpetually being terrible. Curry was a seventh pick.

 

Because most of those picks were late lottery. Counting backwards

 

14

9

9

11

11

3

5

5

8

11

1

 

Others were traded picks. Had those 5 picks been 3 picks or 2 pucks maybe their history is different.

[Magicman28 295]

I'll concede the Iguodala move on one point - I was mistaken in my history and was mistakenly remembering the Howard trade as when we had already drafted Oladipo. Iguodala could have been paired with Oladipo, but we didn't have him at that point, so sure, trading for a vet on an expiring deal wouldn't have done much to build for the future.

 

However, we haven't been able to pair our young talent - which we have - with any supplemental talent, and as such, we continue to waste away in the lottery spinning our wheels, not doing anything.

 

 

 

The highest draft pick on Golden State is a #7. We've had 3 picks higher than that with nothing to show for it. Klay was not a top 10 pick, Draymond was not even a first round pick.

 

The Spurs haven't had a lottery pick in over a decade. Their last lottery pick is now retired, and they are still a top contending team with a bunch of low picks.

 

Miami built their championships around superstar free agents. Without Shaq, or later LeBron and Bosh to help out Wade, Wade has zero championships and not much success in the league.

 

Nowsitzki was a #9 overall pick for Dallas. Again, we have had far higher picks than that with nothing to show for it.

 

Kobe Bryant was not even a top 10 pick, and was acquired by the Lakers for Vlade Divac. They then paired him with a superstar in Shaq via free agency, and later, Kobe led the Lakers to 2 more championships with free agent acquisitions such as Pau Gasol and Lamar Odom.

 

The Pistons won their championship without the aid of a top draft pick. Their roster was built of castoffs from other teams and assembled to a championship and a 2nd Finals appearance.

 

So of the past 20 years, the only teams that were molded by the "tank" philosophy of sucking for the highest possible picks, were Cleveland (drafting Kyrie, trading Wiggins for Love), Chicago (drafting Jordan and Pippen), and kinda sorta the Spurs, who didn't "tank", their all time center went out that season with injury, and so their pick of another all time player was instantly paired with a returning all time center to create a very dominate duo.

 

You have the Lakers (5 championships), the Pistons (1 championship), the Mavericks (1 championship), the Warriors (1 championship), and the Heat (3 championships), who were built outside of the draft.

 

That's 11 of the last 20 championships that were won without the draft.

 

And that's giving you the 5 Spurs championships which are more of an anomaly to the whole "tank" philosophy, as the core of that team, outside of Duncan, were all low drafted players. Ginoboli, 2nd round. Parker, 28th overall. Leonard, 15th overall.

 

So really, that's 16 of the last 20 championships that haven't built via the "tank" philosophy, and haven't needed to "suck" for higher draft picks to win championships.

 

That leaves you with the last 2 Bulls championships (Jordan and Pippen), the Celtics (trading high picks for Allen and Garnett), and the Cavaliers (drafting Kyrie and trading Wiggins for Love)

 

Hennigan has had the draft picks. And I think that most of us would even agree that he's done as well as possible with those picks. So what's missing? Putting the talent around them.

 

As every single one of these championship franchises have done. They don't continue to tank. They draft a guy, and then put talent around him.

 

The last 20 years of championship history completely contradict your entire "tank" philosophy, yet you continue spouting it as if it's some kind of competent and viable team building strategy.

 

You are wrong.

 

 

Ok so let's move on from Iguodala then. Give me another way. You know what you know now. What FA or trade do you think Henny (without any pressure or agenda from upper management) do you think he should've done?

[Franchise408 116]

For one, stick to his stated goal. The entire purpose of clearing cap space was to be a player in the Kevin Durant sweepstakes. While we likely wouldn't have gotten him, we didn't even make a call for Durant. So basically, we spent 4 years saving cap space for Bismack Biyombo.

 

He probably shouldn't have traded Harris, and damn sure shouldn't have traded Oladipo. And if he absolutely had to trade for Dipo, it damn sure shouldn't have been for Ibaka, when between Vucevic and Biyombo and Gordon, we had the 4 and 5 basically locked down.

 

Eric Gordon was a free agent and, if I remember correctly, was a pretty big name on the wish list around here.

 

I don't recall every single free agent that has hit the market the last few years, but I do know that free agents like Jeff Green, DJ Augustine, and Jodie Meeks aren't the type of talent you build around young talent with.

 

Right now, we really only have 2 positions in good position for the future: PF and backup center. I like Payton, but he's still a question mark if he's gonna take the next step or not. But overall I do like him and I don't think PG is our most pressing need. But we do need clear and big upgrades at the 2 and 3, as well as possibly an upgrade over Vuc at the 5 as well.

 

Not to mention just about everything off the bench, backup center aside.

[barnettej 263]

I'll concede the Iguodala move on one point - I was mistaken in my history and was mistakenly remembering the Howard trade as when we had already drafted Oladipo. Iguodala could have been paired with Oladipo, but we didn't have him at that point, so sure, trading for a vet on an expiring deal wouldn't have done much to build for the future.

 

However, we haven't been able to pair our young talent - which we have - with any supplemental talent, and as such, we continue to waste away in the lottery spinning our wheels, not doing anything.

 

 

 

The highest draft pick on Golden State is a #7. We've had 3 picks higher than that with nothing to show for it. Klay was not a top 10 pick, Draymond was not even a first round pick.

 

The Spurs haven't had a lottery pick in over a decade. Their last lottery pick is now retired, and they are still a top contending team with a bunch of low picks.

 

Miami built their championships around superstar free agents. Without Shaq, or later LeBron and Bosh to help out Wade, Wade has zero championships and not much success in the league.

 

Nowsitzki was a #9 overall pick for Dallas. Again, we have had far higher picks than that with nothing to show for it.

 

Kobe Bryant was not even a top 10 pick, and was acquired by the Lakers for Vlade Divac. They then paired him with a superstar in Shaq via free agency, and later, Kobe led the Lakers to 2 more championships with free agent acquisitions such as Pau Gasol and Lamar Odom.

 

The Pistons won their championship without the aid of a top draft pick. Their roster was built of castoffs from other teams and assembled to a championship and a 2nd Finals appearance.

 

So of the past 20 years, the only teams that were molded by the "tank" philosophy of sucking for the highest possible picks, were Cleveland (drafting Kyrie, trading Wiggins for Love), Chicago (drafting Jordan and Pippen), and kinda sorta the Spurs, who didn't "tank", their all time center went out that season with injury, and so their pick of another all time player was instantly paired with a returning all time center to create a very dominate duo.

 

You have the Lakers (5 championships), the Pistons (1 championship), the Mavericks (1 championship), the Warriors (1 championship), and the Heat (3 championships), who were built outside of the draft.

 

That's 11 of the last 20 championships that were won without the draft.

 

And that's giving you the 5 Spurs championships which are more of an anomaly to the whole "tank" philosophy, as the core of that team, outside of Duncan, were all low drafted players. Ginoboli, 2nd round. Parker, 28th overall. Leonard, 15th overall.

 

So really, that's 16 of the last 20 championships that haven't built via the "tank" philosophy, and haven't needed to "suck" for higher draft picks to win championships.

 

That leaves you with the last 2 Bulls championships (Jordan and Pippen), the Celtics (trading high picks for Allen and Garnett), and the Cavaliers (drafting Kyrie and trading Wiggins for Love)

 

Hennigan has had the draft picks. And I think that most of us would even agree that he's done as well as possible with those picks. So what's missing? Putting the talent around them.

 

As every single one of these championship franchises have done. They don't continue to tank. They draft a guy, and then put talent around him.

 

The last 20 years of championship history completely contradict your entire "tank" philosophy, yet you continue spouting it as if it's some kind of competent and viable team building strategy.

 

You are wrong.

 

Damn this was a savage post... +1 for this.

[Fultz4thewin 2,464]

For one, stick to his stated goal. The entire purpose of clearing cap space was to be a player in the Kevin Durant sweepstakes. While we likely wouldn't have gotten him, we didn't even make a call for Durant. So basically, we spent 4 years saving cap space for Bismack Biyombo.

 

He probably shouldn't have traded Harris, and damn sure shouldn't have traded Oladipo. And if he absolutely had to trade for Dipo, it damn sure shouldn't have been for Ibaka, when between Vucevic and Biyombo and Gordon, we had the 4 and 5 basically locked down.

 

Eric Gordon was a free agent and, if I remember correctly, was a pretty big name on the wish list around here.

 

I don't recall every single free agent that has hit the market the last few years, but I do know that free agents like Jeff Green, DJ Augustine, and Jodie Meeks aren't the type of talent you build around young talent with.

 

Right now, we really only have 2 positions in good position for the future: PF and backup center. I like Payton, but he's still a question mark if he's gonna take the next step or not. But overall I do like him and I don't think PG is our most pressing need. But we do need clear and big upgrades at the 2 and 3, as well as possibly an upgrade over Vuc at the 5 as well.

 

Not to mention just about everything off the bench, backup center aside.

 

 

What source do you have we didn't pursue Durant?

[Magicman28 295]

For one, stick to his stated goal. The entire purpose of clearing cap space was to be a player in the Kevin Durant sweepstakes. While we likely wouldn't have gotten him, we didn't even make a call for Durant. So basically, we spent 4 years saving cap space for Bismack Biyombo.

 

He probably shouldn't have traded Harris, and damn sure shouldn't have traded Oladipo. And if he absolutely had to trade for Dipo, it damn sure shouldn't have been for Ibaka, when between Vucevic and Biyombo and Gordon, we had the 4 and 5 basically locked down.

 

Eric Gordon was a free agent and, if I remember correctly, was a pretty big name on the wish list around here.

 

I don't recall every single free agent that has hit the market the last few years, but I do know that free agents like Jeff Green, DJ Augustine, and Jodie Meeks aren't the type of talent you build around young talent with.

 

Right now, we really only have 2 positions in good position for the future: PF and backup center. I like Payton, but he's still a question mark if he's gonna take the next step or not. But overall I do like him and I don't think PG is our most pressing need. But we do need clear and big upgrades at the 2 and 3, as well as possibly an upgrade over Vuc at the 5 as well.

 

Not to mention just about everything off the bench, backup center aside.

 

How do you know he didn't call Durant? Of course he called but Durant was chasing immediate ring opportunities.

 

Season before he had Millsap thinking.

 

It's also well known that Skiles was picked by management and a 30 year old getting his first multimillion dollar head GM job isn't going to against management no matter what we say. Stan might. Pop will. Phil will. Not a guy like Rob. Tobias I agreed shouldn't of been moved and neither should've of been Dipo. Should've started wth that whole squad with Vogel but we didn't know Frank was going to be coach. Probably because Skiles wanted nothing to do with Rob's plan. So with that said, it's Skiles and Management that moved away from Rob's plan not Rob.