Magic @ Kings

[HeHateMe 697]

Disproportionate usage compared to his teammates. Does that make sense?

 

No. They're good players. We don't have any, thus why we don't A) have anyone with a good OWS & DWS B ) Have any wins.

 

I already said they're relative to one another.

 

Obviously if we had better players, we would have more wins, and we would have players with higher OWS & DWS. Ours are all low because we do not have any good players.

 

So the OWS and DWS still matter because they help prove my point that our players aren't good--which is again relative to how good a team is.

 

Again, to me the stat is a valid representation of the state of our team/players.

 

The way you talk is just annoying. You're becoming the new Catman. The condescending tone gets old ("Does that make sense"). I'm not your wife, please don't talk to me like that.

[Fultz4thewin 2,464]

You're so annoying to talk to on here.

 

Based on your theory, than how do good players on crappy teams still have good OWS & DWS?

 

they do more stuff to feed into the DWS statistical model.

 

Payton is much much worse than his DWS would suggest but his DWS are inflated by his high defensive rebounding numbers along with steals and blocks.

 

Additionally, DWS attributes equal blame for poor team defense. so when you have a situation where you have one guy who *****s up the defense of a team (like lillard) it massively drags down the numbers of the rest of the players that play with him (hence why Harkless has a poor defensive rating despite being a pretty solid defender).

[HeHateMe 697]

they do more stuff to feed into the DWS statistical model.

 

Payton is much much worse than his DWS would suggest but his DWS are inflated by his high defensive rebounding numbers along with steals and blocks.

 

Additionally, DWS attributes equal blame for poor team defense. so when you have a situation where you have one guy who *****s up the defense of a team (like lillard) it massively drags down the numbers of the rest of the players that play with him (hence why Harkless has a poor defensive rating despite being a pretty solid defender).

 

I'm not disagreeing. In my original post I said there are caveats to take into consideration.

[Fultz4thewin 2,464]

I'm not disagreeing. In my original post I said there are caveats to take into consideration.

 

yes, but those caveats essentially make the stat meaningless. Offensive win shares are at least grounded in something because they're more objectively measurable (points and efficiency are directly related to how good an offensive player is) but defense is almost impossible to measure by single numbers. you have to put a ton of context around defensive numbers before they start to make sense.

 

So when good defensive players have high defensive rating, bad defensive players have high defensive rating, good defensive players have low defensive rating, bad defensive players have low defensive rating what does that stat really say about defense? Just because Rudy Gobert is 1 and Gobert is a really good defensive player doesn't give the state meaning.

 

I can build a machine that says whether or not you are the pope or the queen of England with 99.999% accuracy by just having it guess no every time.

[Murphy13 185]

No. They're good players. We don't have any, thus why we don't A) have anyone with a good OWS & DWS B ) Have any wins.

 

I already said they're relative to one another.

 

Obviously if we had better players, we would have more wins, and we would have players with higher OWS & DWS. Ours are all low because we do not have any good players.

 

So the OWS and DWS still matter because they help prove my point that our players aren't good--which is again relative to how good a team is.

 

Again, to me the stat is a valid representation of the state of our team/players.

 

The way you talk is just annoying. You're becoming the new Catman. The condescending tone gets old. I'm not your wife, please don't talk to me like that.

 

If you're annoyed, that's fine, when you have time, read this abstract for a better understanding of what people are trying to tell you: http://www.sloansportsconference.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/SSAC15-RP-Finalist-Counterpoints2.pdf. It focuses on offense, and I know you originally mention defensive ws but it touches on the same theory.

You're the one that forced me to be so vocal about Payton...as referenced in the paragraph I wrote several posts up. If you think I'm becoming catman you need to look inward.

[HeHateMe 697]

If you're annoyed, that's fine, when you have time, read this abstract for a better understanding of what people are trying to tell you: http://www.sloansportsconference.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/SSAC15-RP-Finalist-Counterpoints2.pdf. It focuses on offense, and I know you originally mention defensive ws but it touches on the same theory.

You're the one that forced me to be so vocal about Payton...as referenced in the paragraph I wrote several posts up. If you think I'm becoming catman you need to look inward.

 

I don't talk down to people on here just because I disagree with them, Catman.

 

Please keep being vocal about Payton--it will just make you look worse as time goes on.

[Odin 137]

I think it's a problem with perspective. I feel like you're looking at payton as a finished product. I feel like other people are looking at Payton's last week like he's turning into Jason Kidd.

 

I just think there's a solid chance he's developing into a jeff Teague tier point guard. Nobody's super excited about Jeff Teague starting for them. But it's not like he's Devin Harris. He's good enough for the time being. Teague was a starter on some good teams. But nobody called them the Jeff Teague led Atlanta Hawks.

 

That's what I think Payton can be. And that's why I don't think we should be obsessed over replacing Payton. Because there's an opportunity cost and if we focus on replacing payton at all costs we're either going to overpay for a point guard with different problems or draft a guy over Tatum or Jackson who could be difference makers at the wing.

 

But if we think smith is the best player where we pick or if Jrue Holiday wants to come here we shouldn't hesitate to replace payton either. because a guy who's ceiling is "fine" shouldn't prevent you from chasing "great"

 

I really don't think Holiday is that much better than Payton at this point. He is basically Teague.

[TheNameIsOrlando 310]

there are two paths with payton.

 

1. we draft a point guard, keep that point guard on the bench until he's ready, then trade payton or let him go in free agency (mostly depending on how ready that backup is/what our team is doing).

 

2. we draft another position, use next year as another year to figure out what payton is, and either resign him if he's showing additional growth or let him go and pursue other options.

 

 

Payton is ok just like oladipo is ok and harris is ok. He's fine as our starter until we can find a better option. The members of this messageboard who pretend that he's horrible are just as bad as the members of this messageboard who act like they cant criticize him lest they cede ground in their arguments. Both groups are pushing their predefined narratives and have lost all objectivity.

 

 

I'm fine with eithet option. The draft will end up pushing us in one way or the other.

 

We absolutely need to go BPA and let everything fall in place.

[Soul Bro 1,419]

Hello again

[Odin 137]

Hello again

[Mauro Pedrosa 1,031]

Payton is the best PG that Hennigan could have gotten in his tenure.

 

There hasn't been a better PG in the draft.

 

There hasn't been a better free agent that would come to our team.

 

The PGs that I can think of who have been traded during his tenure that would be an upgrade of sorts have been Jeff Teague, George Hill, and Jrue Holiday. Trading for Holiday would have been dumb, and I don't think we had anything that Indiana or Atlanta wanted.

I'd take Dennis Schroder over Payton, but I know some people think that's heresy.

 

Anyway, I've been spouting about Payton-Vuc for years so I'll tone it down a little bit and see where we stand next season or 2 seasons from now.

[Fultz4thewin 2,464]

I'd take Dennis Schroder over Payton, but I know some people think that's heresy.

 

Anyway, I've been spouting about Payton-Vuc for years so I'll tone it down a little bit and see where we stand next season or 2 seasons from now.

 

You haven't watched enough schroder