2017 NBA Draft Thread

[TheNameIsOrlando 310]

You don't believe in context do you?

 

No hate towards you but weeks before the draft you seemed to be against Isaac and now are on the complete other side. Were you just that wrong or have you just completely talked yourself into him and are now ignoring your previous thoughts?

 

I could see if you were somewhere in the middle but you've done a complete 180.

 

Am I not remembering this correctly?

[Fultz4thewin 2,464]

False. It's just you're equation is missing variables.

 

I saw Exum and immediately said I'm not buying it. You're looking this with some analytics/stats and not with your eyes and other variables.

 

Harkless equation- Never was a 6'3 pg. Defended 2, 3, 4, and 5's. At St John's he shot 21% from 3's and 67% from free throws as a freshman. Eye test, can do basic crossovers and basic perimeter things that are usually taught and executed in JV high school. Stuff that most players can pull off half asleep. Didn't really progress in that regard in college hence why he played more as a 4-5 in college. Used his athleticism and length to slash but against more skilled players, looked underdeveloped. Scouts never praised his offensive ability, shooting, or handles. Actually his knock was how raw he was on offense.

 

Isaac-Was a guard up to his junior year until he sprouted 6-7 inches. That means he developed guard like instincts and if you ever played point like I did, you'd know that's not something every player can't just develop. Shot 35% from 3's and 79% from free throws as a freshman. Eye test: A lot more refined with the ball. Not anything that's on par with Iverson but definitely fluid and impressive for someone who's 6'10-7'0. That one high school clip where he pulls off two crossovers on the same possession alone makes the Harkless comp look comical. It's not just that he did it, it's how fluid it was. Harkless looks mechanical.

Scouts praised him for his offensive versatility and over the last few days I've seen video where people more credible than you or I, have gone into how well he handles the ball and his instincts on offense.

 

he played 4 or 5 in college because he was the only guy on the roster capable of doing so. he was one of two players in the rotation over the height of 6'6. harkless played out of position out of necessity.

 

 

 

and since we're appealing to authority now:

 

Simply put, Isaac projects more as a hyper-elite role-playing starter who can switch everything, defend the opponent's best perimeter player, protect the rim off the ball, defensive rebound, likely make enough jumpers to keep the defense honest, and play within himself in the half court. There's a ton of value in what Isaac brings to the table. He's a unique prospect and he's a perfect piece on a winning team, while fitting the modern NBA to a tee. If the team that drafts him is expecting him to get up 15-20 shots a night, score prolifically from all three levels and shine in crunch time when his team needs a bucket, they may be disappointed, however. - Source: http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Jonathan-Isaac-90052/ ©DraftExpress

 

Jonathan Isaac is an interesting case. He's one of the more unique, and possibly impactful, defensive prospects in this draft, with a combination of playmaking, length, athleticism, effort, and versatility that you don't find very often. That kind of role, especially i he can make that three-point shot a consistent part of his game to spread the floor, is an incredibly valuable one for teams to fill, especially as more and more coaches want to switch anything they can on the perimeter. Isaac fits that archetype to a T.Yet it's also possible, for as valuable as Isaac can become in that role, that you'd be left wondering whither he's reached his full potential offensively. Even so, that shouldn't cloud the value he can bring as a versatile, playmaking, unique three-and-D forward. Regardless of the concern over reaching his offensive potential, he's likely to be drafted high in the 2017 draft because of how valued his role has become, and how few projections you have to make in order to see him filling that role effectively. - Source: http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Jonathan-Isaac-90052/ ©DraftExpress

 

Handle: Decent handle for his size considering his dribble will be higher at his height (if you consider him a 4) but lacks the burst to consistently separate. Can play off hesitation moves, hang dribbles, crossovers and through the legs step-backs, but almost always results in a pull-up due to lack of juice off a live dribble. Likely a big space handler with struggles against pressure defense when players gets into his body. Can grab and go in big space transition setting, but handle is a bit loose even in space.

 

But he does not look to be a dynamic self-creator, especially if he mans a majority of minutes at the three. His skill-set becomes more alluring as you push him down positions, but it’s unreasonable to expect primary scorer type upside with how much his handle especially slows him down. Still, there are not many, if any, current NBA players who have Isaac’s precise combination of skills, and he’s going to make a lot of money in the league on the defensive side of the ball.

 

Similar to Ball, it’s Isaac’s high floor that projects to impact winning basketball that’s his main allure. His defensive ceiling however is considerable, and his skill-set is a rare commodity. The league is starved of legit 3&D wings, and Isaac has the baseline to be one of the best in basketball while also providing rim protection, a combination not often found.

 

Typically you don’t see “wings” who doesn’t project to be dynamic scorers go this high, but Isaac’s fit in the modern game defensively can’t be ignored. His size and quick feet combination is reminiscent of Dragan Bender last year, save for Isaac might be a better bet to shoot. He lacks Bender’s passing intellect and BBIQ, but any versatile big who is a two-level defender who can also potentially serve as a spacing threat on offense in the modern game is insanely valuable. Isaac has considerable upside on a winning team, and for me is well deserving of the #4 slot

https://capstrategist.com/2017/06/20/2017-draft-big-board-tiers-1-and-2/

 

 

Isaac hasn’t yet developed the ability to get to the rim handling the ball against a set defense.

 

He can’t get by his man on speed, doesn’t have any dribble moves to shake his defender side-to-side, can’t maintain his balance through contact on straight line drives and has a loose handle that makes him prone to getting the ball stripped in traffic. His 14.5% turnover rate is quite high in the context of his 21.9% usage rate.

 

Isaac also struggles creating his own shot out of the pick-and-roll. He isn’t able to turn the corner when he is forced to his left and hasn’t shown much in terms of changing speeds or being able to make stop-and-pop jumpers in rhythm.

 

Isaac has, however, flashed some very appealing passing off the ball-screen. He’s played with nice pace against big men able to defend above the foul line and proved himself able to hit his screener diving to the lane with good timing. But as a reflection of how little he runs offense, Isaac has assisted on just 7.2% of Florida State’s scores when he’s been on the floor.

 

For the most part, whether it’s in isolation or out of the pick-and-roll, Isaac looks for step-back pull-ups when he’s handling the ball. Given his length, few wings and even big men at the college level can contest him that well.

 

He has not been given any real opportunity to show whether he can burn switches in the post.

http://basketball.realgm.com/article/244688/Prospect-Report-Jonathan-Isaac-Of-Florida-State

[TheNameIsOrlando 310]

^^^^Sounds like a Batum level player.

[Odin 137]

False. It's just you're equation is missing variables.

 

I saw Exum and immediately said I'm not buying it. You're looking this with some analytics/stats and not with your eyes and other variables.

 

Harkless equation- Never was a 6'3 pg. Defended 2, 3, 4, and 5's. At St John's he shot 21% from 3's and 67% from free throws as a freshman. Eye test, can do basic crossovers and basic perimeter things that are usually taught and executed in JV high school. Stuff that most players can pull off half asleep. Didn't really progress in that regard in college hence why he played more as a 4-5 in college. Used his athleticism and length to slash but against more skilled players, looked underdeveloped. Scouts never praised his offensive ability, shooting, or handles. Actually his knock was how raw he was on offense.

 

Isaac-Was a guard up to his junior year until he sprouted 6-7 inches. That means he developed guard like instincts and if you ever played point like I did, you'd know that's not something every player can just develop. Shot 35% from 3's and 79% from free throws as a freshman. Eye test: A lot more refined with the ball. Not anything that's on par with Iverson but definitely fluid and impressive for someone who's 6'10-7'0. That one high school clip where he pulls off two crossovers on the same possession alone makes the Harkless comp look comical. It's not just that he did it, it's how fluid it was. Harkless looks mechanical.

Scouts praised him for his offensive versatility and over the last few days I've seen video where people more credible than you or I, have gone into how well he handles the ball and his instincts on offense.

 

I think it is smartest to take a middle approach here. There have been many players who have been able to conjure up skills in the NBA that weren't that noticeable or didn't seem to be there in college. In the same respect, there have been many players that flashed some skill in college, only for it to either never appear in the NBA, or fail to be effective vs. NBA quality players.

 

Isaac could be one, or he could be another there. I wouldn't hope for him to suddenly blossom into some uber ball handling offensive force in the KD mold just because he was once a guard (remember, Dwight Howard also played guard before he grew. I don't think any team wants DH bringing the ball up, distributing, etc.), or because he showed hints of some skills- but I also don't think it is quite fair to already label him as only going to be who he seemed to be in college.

 

Any early prognostications of his inevitable success or failure to up his game, and digging into that position as if the other side has no merit to their position seems, to me, to be foolish at best. We have been through this drill before- calling some draft pick or another the best player ever (hyperbole), or certain to bust out of the league within a year (more hyperbole), without seeing any NBA action.

 

Isaac could end up being a game changer. He could end up a very good player. He could end up mediocre. He could end up a scrub. He could even bust out of the league. Obviously some of these are more likely than others, but they are all possibilities here. I think everyone should wait though before they begin digging their trenches and casting disparagement to the other side.

 

Isaac's statistics look pretty good. His tape seems to look pretty good. There is reason to be excited about both. There is reasons to be concerned about both. There are reasons, perhaps, to worry about his intangibles- or to be excited about them.

[Fultz4thewin 2,464]

^^^^Sounds like a Batum level player.

 

Batum is a great passer though.

 

Also, despite my issues with people projecting his offense much higher than I think is appropriate, Isaac has a great chance to be a special defender. I wonder if we'd be talking about him in the same lane as Nerlens Noel if he was given more weakside block opportunities.

[TheNameIsOrlando 310]

Batum is a great passer though.

 

Also, despite my issues with people projecting his offense much higher than I think is appropriate, Isaac has a great chance to be a special defender. I wonder if we'd be talking about him in the same lane as Nerlens Noel if he was given more weakside block opportunities.

 

Is Nerlens Noel a good thing? It's obviously not bad but not good enough for me.

[Odin 137]

Batum is a great passer though.

 

Also, despite my issues with people projecting his offense much higher than I think is appropriate, Isaac has a great chance to be a special defender. I wonder if we'd be talking about him in the same lane as Nerlens Noel if he was given more weakside block opportunities.

 

Where did he normally play with FSU on defense? Was he normally defending inside, or was he more on the perimeter? He had a 6.2% block rate, which looks good, but I don't know how much of that was due to the different college rules.

[Fultz4thewin 2,464]

Is Nerlens Noel a good thing? It's obviously not bad but not good enough for me.

 

Noel who can defend sfs on the perimeter and space the floor on offense is a great player

[Fultz4thewin 2,464]

Where did he normally play with FSU on defense? Was he normally defending inside, or was he more on the perimeter? He had a 6.2% block rate, which looks good, but I don't know how much of that was due to the different college rules.

 

Mixed.

[Magicman28 295]

he played 4 or 5 in college because he was the only guy on the roster capable of doing so. he was one of two players in the rotation over the height of 6'6. harkless played out of position out of necessity.

 

 

 

and since we're appealing to authority now:

 

 

 

 

So let me break each site down

 

Draft express

 

"If the team that drafts him is expecting him to get up 15-20 shots a night, score prolifically from all three levels and shine in crunch time when his team needs a bucket, they may be disappointed, however. - Source: http://www.draftexpr...an-Isaac-9005"

 

Maybe. Especially right off the bat. Doesn't actually knock his offensive abilities. Just is based on his role at FSU. Compliments his shooting unlike AHEM

 

Harkless?

 

"I think I need to improve my shooting. I didn't really shoot the ball well. Ballhandling, as well. Those are the things that I've been working on mostly: getting my shot to drop more and working on my ball handling, - Source: http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Moe-Harkless-6526/ ©DraftExpress"

 

 

Next

 

"PLAYMAKING, length, athleticism, effort, and versatility that you don't find very often. That kind of role, especially i he can make that three-point shot a consistent part of his game to spread the floor, is an incredibly valuable one for teams to fill, "

 

And then it says

 

"t's also possible, for as valuable as Isaac can become in that role, that you'd be left wondering whither he's reached his full potential offensively."

 

Full potential as in, he was a 3rd option as a freshman so we have no clue but he has the potential.

 

 

Cap strategist

 

 

"Can play off hesitation moves, hang dribbles, crossovers and through the legs step-backs, but almost always results in a pull-up due to lack of juice off a live dribble. "

 

Eh, he's using his length and eve he mentions some of his skills. I mean KD and George post injury does this all the time.

Kawhi dropped 20+ because of his ability to pull up. I don't expect a 7 footer to blow by his defender off the dribble like Iverson. With length and shooting, you don't need to be level 99 ball handling with Neo like moves to be an 20+ scorer.

 

 

"does not look to be a dynamic self-creator, especially if he mans a majority of minutes at the three. His skill-set becomes more alluring as you push him down positions, but it’s unreasonable to expect primary scorer type upside with how much his handle especially slows him down"

 

Yeah if you're going by usage and stats at FSU. I don't expect him to be KD but we're talking about Harkless comps here.

 

How's this guy credible btw?

 

 

The last article, I mean yeah he hasn't show some stuff. The very first part of the article you left out saying how low his usage was. Don't know how you can show it all with low usage.

 

I'm not saying he's a finished product or doesn't need work.

 

I'm saying the Harkless comps are horrible.

[Fultz4thewin 2,464]

 

 

So let me break each site down

 

Draft express

 

If the team that drafts him is expecting him to get up 15-20 shots a night, score prolifically from all three levels and shine in crunch time when his team needs a bucket, they may be disappointed, however. - Source: http://www.draftexpr...an-Isaac-9005

 

Maybe. Especially right off the bat. Doesn't actually knock his offensive abilities. Just is based on his role at FSU. Compliments his shooting unlike AHEM

 

Harkless? I think I need to improve my shooting. I didn't really shoot the ball well. Ballhandling, as well. Those are the things that I've been working on mostly: getting my shot to drop more and working on my ball handling, - Source: http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Moe-Harkless-6526/ ©DraftExpress

 

 

Next

 

PLAYMAKING, length, athleticism, effort, and versatility that you don't find very often. That kind of role, especially i he can make that three-point shot a consistent part of his game to spread the floor, is an incredibly valuable one for teams to fill,

 

And then it says

 

t's also possible, for as valuable as Isaac can become in that role, that you'd be left wondering whither he's reached his full potential offensively.

 

Full potential as in, he was a 3rd option as a freshman so we have no clue but he has the potential.

 

 

Cap strategist

 

 

Can play off hesitation moves, hang dribbles, crossovers and through the legs step-backs, but almost always results in a pull-up due to lack of juice off a live dribble.

 

Eh, he's using his length and eve he mentions some of his skills. I mean KD and George post injury does this all the time.

Kawhi dropped 20+ because of his ability to pull up. I don't expect a 7 footer to blow by his defender off the dribble like Iverson. With length and shooting, you don't need to be level 99 ball handling with Neo like moves to be an 20+ scorer.

 

 

"does not look to be a dynamic self-creator, especially if he mans a majority of minutes at the three. His skill-set becomes more alluring as you push him down positions, but it’s unreasonable to expect primary scorer type upside with how much his handle especially slows him down"

 

Yeah if you're going by usage and stats at FSU. I don't expect him to be KD but we're talking about Harkless comps here.

 

How's this guy credible btw?

 

 

The last article, I mean yeah he hasn't show some stuff. The very first part of the article you left out said how low his usage was. Don't know how you can show it all with low usage.

 

I'm not saying he's a finished product or doesn't need work.

 

I'm saying the Harkless comps are horrible.

 

 

You misunderstood the offensive potential line. It's saying you might be sitting there during his career seeing flashes of what might be possible with him but wondering why he can never be that guy.

 

Similar to harkless how every year there's been an nba writer saying "omg harkless might be really really good" during his annual ebb. But then harkless never really building on that.

[Trey Time 186]

Issac will prove to be the best Magic draft pick since Dwight Howard.

 

That's not saying much.