Justin Jaudon 221 Report post Posted August 18, 2016 everyone I mentioned had lower PER, lower win shares, lower win shares per 48 and most had lower BPM except for the ones I said arguably where they were close in some catagories but not all. Everyone also started the majority of their games. Rondo spefically in 14-15 was worse in both advanced and traditional statistics. I mean he even shot less than 40% on FTs. Isaiah Canaan, as a PG, has never started more games than he's come off the bench in an NBA season (he played a lot of SG last year, which is fair, because he's not a PG). Trey Burke had a higher ws/48 in 14/15, a turnover percentage nearly half of Payton's with a higher usage rate, a considerably higher offensive rating with a similar defensive rating (108 v Payton's 107). Rondo, even if I agree, still doesn't push Payton out of the bottom 5 that year. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Justin Jaudon 221 Report post Posted August 18, 2016 TJ ford had a PER above 20 one season before he succumbed to injury There's also Brandon Knight, Eric Bledsoe, Mike Conley, kyle lowry if you consider his second year his true first year here's the ones who were bad for one season then got better: Tony Parker, George Hill (bad first, average second), Jason Terry, Jrue Holiday Not comprehensive but I have to go home now. I don't think we value the same measurements if you're calling Kyle Lowry's first two years comparable to Payton's, or Conley's second. Bledsoe is encouraging, but his career is such a weird one that I'm not sure what to make of the comparison. It's an interesting thought, though. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fultz4thewin 2,464 Report post Posted August 18, 2016 Isaiah Canaan, as a PG, has never started more games than he's come off the bench in an NBA season (he played a lot of SG last year, which is fair, because he's not a PG). Trey Burke had a higher ws/48 in 14/15, a turnover percentage nearly half of Payton's with a higher usage rate, a considerably higher offensive rating with a similar defensive rating (108 v Payton's 107). Rondo, even if I agree, still doesn't push Payton out of the bottom 5 that year. He played 56% of his minutes last year at point according to basketball reference. I'm not using turnover percentage because a players value isn't tied directly to turnovers. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fultz4thewin 2,464 Report post Posted August 18, 2016 I don't think we value the same measurements if you're calling Kyle Lowry's first two years comparable to Payton's, or Conley's second. Bledsoe is encouraging, but his career is such a weird one that I'm not sure what to make of the comparison. It's an interesting thought, though. Maybe we don't. Lowry had a similar PER and BPM. a higher WS/48. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Justin Jaudon 221 Report post Posted August 18, 2016 He played 56% of his minutes last year at point according to basketball reference. I'm not using turnover percentage because a players value isn't tied directly to turnovers. That's interesting about Canaan. Smith started 50 games at PG for them, though, so it's hard to argue that Canaan was their starting PG. Most of his minutes at PG likely came as a backup, even if it was more than 50% of his overall minutes. Canaan is a tweener who plays a lot of both PG and SG, but doesn't fit the criteria, because he was not a starter at PG for more than half his games. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Justin Jaudon 221 Report post Posted August 18, 2016 Maybe we don't. Lowry had a similar PER and BPM. a higher WS/48. Yea, I don't put much stock in BPM, and I suspect I put higher stock in ORtg and DRtg. PER is a tricky stat. It's good for weeding out the terrible players, usually, so I like it; but it also often overvalues guys whose play is selfish and doesn't actually translate to winning, like Boogie and T-Wolves Kevin Love. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fan for too long 2 527 Report post Posted August 19, 2016 I am impressed in your research. But your stats bring no intangibles into consideration. That's OK. I will cheer Payton. U will not resist nitpicking every fault. Have fun. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fultz4thewin 2,464 Report post Posted August 19, 2016 I am impressed in your research. But your stats bring no intangibles into consideration. That's OK. I will cheer Payton. U will not resist nitpicking every fault. Have fun. What intangibles? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fan for too long 2 527 Report post Posted August 19, 2016 Injuries, personal life, multiple coaches, youth, personnel changes, plus playing the most difficult position in the game. But I know you all dismiss these things. It's not all just black and white. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Justin Jaudon 221 Report post Posted August 19, 2016 Look, we all cheer Payton. I hope he turns things around. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Catalina Maria 64 Report post Posted August 19, 2016 http://www.sbnation.com/nba/2015/3/22/8273579/elfrid-payton-rookie-stats-triple-double-orlando-magic This is the Payton Henny and I believe in. Last year, Payton was not allowed to thrive because he was stuck in a system where his coach clearly didn't believe in his skill set. Last year, Payton's 3 pt FG% is 36% up from 24%. He showed that he can improve his shooting touch. It just fascinates me how easily so many fans count him out already. MIP of the year. I'm calling it. You're welcome. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Justin Jaudon 221 Report post Posted August 19, 2016 http://www.sbnation.com/nba/2015/3/22/8273579/elfrid-payton-rookie-stats-triple-double-orlando-magic This is the Payton Henny and I believe in. Last year, Payton was not allowed to thrive because he was stuck in a system where his coach clearly didn't believe in his skill set. Last year, Payton's 3 pt FG% is 32.6% up from 24%. He showed that he can improve his shooting touch. It just fascinates me how easily so many fans count him out already. MIP of the year. I'm calling it. You're welcome. Fixed for factual accuracy. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites