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2016 Off-Season Thread

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Those who compared Elfrid Payton to Hall-of-Famer Gary Payton in the lead up to the draft were crazy. "The Glove" is a legend that very few, if any, players have been able to replicate.

 

But the younger Payton could have the look of another 90's standout in Mookie Blaylock. A guy who lead the NBA in steals in back-to-back seasons and used his hard-nosed, aggressive style to impose himself on opponents.

 

That is Payton's ceiling, used his physical and athletic gifts to will his way to success against his opponents. And now he has the coach that can bring that out of him.

 

Blaylock was an elite defensive point guard that could create with his ultra-aggressive play style. But if Frank Vogel can get Payton to take chances and play confidently, then having a career similar to Blaylock's is certainly within reach.

http://www.hashtagba...ngs-under-vogel

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Hater

 

I can't wait to see all the people eat their words when Payton gets it together and becomes one of the league's best PG's. As structured now, his ASSISTS and STEALS will go up. Let's hope his shooting improves this year. If shooting improves, he is deadly.

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Just because you think Payton is going to be good doesn't mean he is already a top 25 playing in magic history.

 

Notice Hezonja and Gordon didn't make my list. Because they have potential but haven't done anything yet.

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Hater

 

I don't hate the kid at all. I just think that so far he has been a terrible starting PG, and I get annoyed when people make excuses for a guy who has been handed every opportunity to succeed. If he turns it around, I'll be among the happiest on the board. But him eventually turning it around wouldn't invalidate how bad he's been to this point.

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I don't hate the kid at all. I just think that so far he has been a terrible starting PG, and I get annoyed when people make excuses for a guy who has been handed every opportunity to succeed. If he turns it around, I'll be among the happiest on the board. But him eventually turning it around wouldn't invalidate how bad he's been to this point.

U have to put his 2 years in context and compared to what? For a player that came from a mid major forced into starting on a terrible team, to say he has been terrible is hyperbole. If he was a veteran pg and had the same numbers then yes that's terrible. But he isn't so it's not.

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U have to put his 2 years in context and compared to what? For a player that came from a mid major forced into starting on a terrible team, to say he has been terrible is hyperbole. If he was a veteran pg and had the same numbers then yes that's terrible. But he isn't so it's not.

 

I'm supposed to feel better about the kid because he couldn't get into a major program in college? Because the team is bad? Damian Lillard and Steph Curry went to mid-majors, and were brought into bad teams (less so for Lillard, but they were still far from a playoff team), and they played great right away. And a significant role on a terrible team, especially with zero pressure of being replaced, usually means inflated numbers, not terrible ones (see Ish Smith for the 76ers, or Shabazz Muhammed for the T-Wolves in 2014-15).

 

Calling Payton a terrible starter to this point isn't hyperbole, it's painfully accurate. He's been a bottom 3-5 starting PG in the league, unarguably. That means he's been terrible. Rookie year, that's acceptable. Not year two at 22 years old. After that point, you're looking for a miracle turnaround or a new player. But the fact that he would need a miracle turnaround to be a mid-level NBA starter means he's been terrible to this point. But you keep making excuses, even if they don't make sense. Skiles was successful with every other young PG he coached. Kirk Hinrich and Brandon Jennings both played very well under Skiles, early in their careers (Hinrich hasn't looked like a starting PG for anyone else). But of course, because Payton sucked hardcore last year, it must be Skiles' fault. Rajon Rondo, the closest analogue for Payton's ceiling in the league today, has put up numbers but has consistently made his teams worse over the last three years as the league has changed, yet Elf's going to be different, because you say so.

 

Payton's game doesn't fit the modern NBA, even if he were particularly good at his game, which he hasn't shown to be. Payton, to be utilized at all, would need to be surrounded by guys who are excellent outside shooters, which this team doesn't have in abundance. Payton has yet to show the internal drive to succeed necessary for any starter in the NBA, especially one with his limitations. These things are indisputable. Yet you will make excuses...

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I'm supposed to feel better about the kid because he couldn't get into a major program in college? Because the team is bad? Damian Lillard and Steph Curry went to mid-majors, and were brought into bad teams (less so for Lillard, but they were still far from a playoff team), and they played great right away. And a significant role on a terrible team, especially with zero pressure of being replaced, usually means inflated numbers, not terrible ones (see Ish Smith for the 76ers, or Shabazz Muhammed for the T-Wolves in 2014-15).

 

Calling Payton a terrible starter to this point isn't hyperbole, it's painfully accurate. He's been a bottom 3-5 starting PG in the league, unarguably. That means he's been terrible. Rookie year, that's acceptable. Not year two at 22 years old. After that point, you're looking for a miracle turnaround or a new player. But the fact that he would need a miracle turnaround to be a mid-level NBA starter means he's been terrible to this point. But you keep making excuses, even if they don't make sense. Skiles was successful with every other young PG he coached. Kirk Hinrich and Brandon Jennings both played very well under Skiles, early in their careers (Hinrich hasn't looked like a starting PG for anyone else). But of course, because Payton sucked hardcore last year, it must be Skiles' fault. Rajon Rondo, the closest analogue for Payton's ceiling in the league today, has put up numbers but has consistently made his teams worse over the last three years as the league has changed, yet Elf's going to be different, because you say so.

 

Payton's game doesn't fit the modern NBA, even if he were particularly good at his game, which he hasn't shown to be. Payton, to be utilized at all, would need to be surrounded by guys who are excellent outside shooters, which this team doesn't have in abundance. Payton has yet to show the internal drive to succeed necessary for any starter in the NBA, especially one with his limitations. These things are indisputable. Yet you will make excuses...

 

 

Skiles and Payton's personalities didn't mesh.

 

 

They are being hyperbolic in the context that payton will be great. You are being hyperbolic with most of the other stuff.

 

 

Payton is an inconsistent player who has shown flashes of being pretty good but instead of improving at a steady rate he's been up and down. If the 18 game stretch where he went for 14 and 6 and we went 11 and 7 happened at the end of the year we'd feel pretty good about him. He didn't so it's appropriate to question what he is.

 

Vogel is a nurturing coach which probably fits Payton better.

 

Either way it is what it is. Payton has this upcoming season to provide some sort of basis for keeping him and not going in another direction. He's set up to succeed as we have better pick and roll defenders that should help him fighting through screens, a coach that has a track record of developing young players, and enough roster versatility that can deal with bumps in the road.

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