Game Thread: Magic @ Kings 1/8/12

[KandiKane 136]

AlexKennedyNBA Alex Kennedy

Otis Smith: "I think [Dwight] leaving or going has nothing to do w/ ORL. I think he wants a bigger market. I can't do anything about that."

 

That's Orlando's issue right there. A GM that only looks at things the way he wants to see it and not reality. He has failed to do his job at a competent level.

[Marc Acres 3:16 418]

That's Orlando's issue right there. A GM that only looks at things the way he wants to see it and not reality. He has failed to do his job at a competent level.

 

I agree, it's a perfect excuse to try and save your own job.

[Secretly Space Jesus 670]

Its always great to see someone focus on the amount of completions, completion percentage or yardage with Tebow. Why? Is it because you cant make a comment on any other aspect of the guys game. Why not say he had 300+ yards against the number one defense? Something Brady or any other qb in the league didnt do this year. Why not say he didnt throw an int, why not his rushing yardage or his 3 total tds.?

 

Because none of those things were relevant to the point being discussed.

 

Why not the fact he turned a terrible team around and made the playoffs?

 

Because it wasn't what was being discussed, but whatever. He was 7-4 as a starter, and lost the game preceding that where he played most of the game but didn't start. So he managed to win well against the cupcakiest of cupcake schedules. Tebow only had to play 2 games against teams that finished the year with winning records. The Jets and Bears both had slight winning records at the time as well, but both were facing serious injuries and just in general sucking at the time.

 

Seriously, how did Denver get this schedule? They only played 5 teams that finished with winning records. They only played 4 games against playoff teams(1-4 and 1-3 respectively in those games). Only 2 of their final 12 games were against winning teams(The Tebows lost those games a combined 96-33. Tebow didn't "lose the magic" or any of that nonsense. He simply had to play a team that wasn't completely terrible.)

 

Why not talk about his winning against the Steelers. Last I checked the Steelers did what KC did...everyone in the box. I really dont think they were purposely trying to lose...do you? Maybe his unique abilities forced Pitt to put those guys in the box...duh... There is more to being a qb than throwing a 15 yd pass oddly enough. Some guys scramble, some pass and some do both.

 

I tend to think guys like Jimmy Johnson, Mke Ditka, Bill Parcells as hall of fame coaches who have said Tebow is a winner and solid qb know a bit. Former players and hall of famers like ex-nole Deion, Michael Irvin, Dan Marino and Marshall Faulk are solid backers. Even Dilfer who was a horrible qb converted to supporting the guy. So that leaves Merril Hoge...a NOBODY. A terrible running back who retired because he was concussed one too many times but never made one pro bowl and really wasnt very good at all. What does he know about the qb position? I guess more than the 7 hall of famers I mentioned above....amazing.

 

Well, we actually WERE talking about his beating the Steelers. That's like, exactly what we were talking about. So I'm not sure how you can complain about that.

 

And no, that's decidedly not what KC did. KC would put 9 in the box at times, but they constantly changed their defensive scheme based on the situation.

 

Did you ever consider Tebow isnt asked to pass it 55 times in a game? Fox is a defensive coordinator who likes to win 3-0. Except for this game Tebow is only asked to pass 10-20 times a game. How does that help a qbs rhythm? Not too good huh? Rhythm is what makes qbs get rolling...forget that with one pass every 10 plays.

 

Secondly, Other than todays game when is he allowed to pass? 3rd and 10 or greater. How does passing on a known passing down in 3rd and very long work into either a blitz or dime plus defenses...not good...huh? So does he take a sack...sure occasionally but mostly he throws it away. Doesnt make numbers look good does it? What would you like him to do? Chuck it in there like that great FSU product Ponder did this year? Oh yeah ponder got benched for Joe Webb.

 

Ok first of all, Gators-homer: I'm not a Seminoles fan, so you can shut up about ex-Noles supporting Tebow and Ponder, because I really don't care.

 

2nd: Tebow isn't asked to throw often because he's not good enough at it. It has nothing to do with "rhythm". It has to do with "inconsistency". If Big Ben doesn't fumble Pittsburgh out of field goal range on the last drive of regulation, the only throw of Tebow's anyone would have talked about after that game was the one Tebow threw to a wide open receiver on third down to get his team into field goal range that bounced 5 yards short.

 

So on to the Broncos receivers...lots of drops most of the time little separation most of the year. Traded their only solid wr and started Eric Decker and DT coming off an achilles tear last year...not too good. Brady...well Herrnandez, Gronk, Welker, Branch and Ocho Cinco would ALL start ahead of any wr on denvers roster. Brees....Colston, Maechem, Henderson, Grahm, Sproles, Moore are better than anything on denver. Stafford, Rivers, Eli and Peyton all have better wrs than tebow. Denvers best wr would be bench players or theoccasional 5th of a 5 wide package at best on those clubs.

 

So back to the 10 completions...were there bad passes...sure. Not too many but some. Did he get picked or turn the ball over? Did he throw away 4 passes of those? Run the ball, play good defense and dont turn the ball over. Its an rule #1 to winning a football game that is said by Lombardi, Shula, Ditka, Johnson etc. Thats what he did...the other qb didnt today and you fault him for 10 completions. It must be really hard digging through that stat line and looking for a way to dislike a winner.

 

First question: On what *****ing planet did Shula not prefer to pass? Are you really just pulling coach's names out of a hat here? Is it just the coaches whose names you know?

 

2nd, and this is important: not one of the receivers you just mentioned of the Saints was anyone or anything before Brees got there. None of them. And for Brady, I don't think much of the guy, but look at the receivers he had in '04. It was a who's who of who-the-hell-are-you. Good receivers want to play with guys like Brady, so they came to him. But he was a great quarterback when he had nobody. I'd easily take this receiver corps over the one Brady started with, and Brady was still putting up better numbers.

 

So Tebow starting for essentially one year. Let me know what stats look worse than hall of fame John Elways did in year one? How about Peyton Manning? Peyton did set the int record for qbs his first year. He surely would never amount to anything right? How about Stafford? How about Brees? There arent many qbs that look great their frst year. Not too many Dan Marinos out there buddy.

 

So you want to compare rookie years of other players in different situations across different eras? For what possible purpose? Brees played one game as a rookie. How the hell is that relevant?

 

Not to mention: It's not Tebow's rookie year, it's his second year. He played almost the same number of games in his ACTUAL rookie year, 7, as Stafford did(10), and Stafford had the excuse of playing on a team that had just gone 0-16.

 

Also: Manning has never gotten anywhere near the INT record. As a rookie, he threw a lot of INTs while leading the league in passing attempts, but he "only" threw 28 interceptions. The league record is 42.

 

So I guess playing in the SEC where most of the future pro talent plays on Saturday means we can discount his college stats too. One of the highest completion percentages ever in college and one of the highest yds per attempt and completion. One of the highest qb ratings which measure the whole package...two national titles and a list of awards that would fill this page itself. In the SEC against the best in the NCAA and you think he cant pass? He was playing Bama, LSU, Auburn, Georgia, South Carolina, Tennessee and that girls school out west he crushed four years in a row. Pretty tough schedule and he cant pass anymore... Funny! Give the guy time...he will be just fine. Stick to the Magic next time.

 

I didn't need you to tell me that you were Gator homer, but this is ridiculous. Do you think Danny Wuerffel just never got a fair shake in the NFL? Do you REALLY not understand the difference between a pro-style offense and a college offense?

 

You don't, do you?

[kramerthesecond 15]

the tough conference argument makes lol. the all sec conference defensive team can't hold a candle to the worst defense in nfl, not even a small one.

 

lol do some research before claiming that most of the nfl talent comes from there. the sec produced 9 more first round picks than the big 10 (a conference you probably trash) over the course of the past decade. they accounted for a mere 2% more of the total first round selections, and that's without including nebraska and a top 5 program ever in michigan struggling.

[Passenger57 65]

Hope the Magic can get some good use out of having a few days off and Stan realizes once and for all he needs to fully utilize his bench.

 

Regarding that other subject, I have two words for you - Matt Prater

[NittanyBuc 757]

I do think Tebow needs credited with playing a pretty good game. He had a few passes that were on the money (ex. Eddie Royal TD), but look at the YAC for the receivers like Demaryius Thomas. Pittsburgh's secondary was awful with Ike Taylor getting abused and Ryan Mundy (playing for Ryan Clark) making poor reads, plus injuries to both Casey Hampton and Brett Kiesel, which crippled Pittsburgh's pass rush and penetration. Tebow deserves credit for playing mistake free football, but his WR corps deserves more credit for turning safe 8 yard receptions into 25+ yard homerun plays.

 

Pittsburgh gambled on allowing Tebow to beat them in the air, which I'm fine with, but you can't allow corners to give inside positioning in cover 2 man and your safeties still have to make their proper reads. Numerous times I watched Mundy and Troy Polamalu lock onto Tebow and get beat as a result. Plus, instead of hitting Tebow on read options, whether he had the ball or not, James Harrison let Tebow go untouched, twice. You have to make QBs pay if they want to run and Pittsburgh failed to do so.

[BertMcgert 0]

The problem with Orlando is that the little fans they do have spend their time arguing about Tim Tebow on a Magic forum.

[NittanyBuc 757]

The problem with Orlando is that the little fans they do have spend their time arguing about Tim Tebow on a Magic forum.

Do our conversations affect how well this team plays or something?

[Justin Jaudon 221]

Why is it that everywhere I look people of little real understanding are talking about Tim Tebow?

 

I will begin by saying that if Tebow couldn't run he'd have a hard time starting for Florida at QB right now, much less an NFL team. That being said, if Vick couldn't run I'm not sure he would have started on a good high school team at QB. Tebow is not a good passer, unless he is throwing a deep ball or to an open guy while on the run ( two things he does at a high NFL level). That's not to say he can't or won't be. He's two years in the league with no offseason work in between and no work with the starting team until 6 weeks into the season.

 

I guess people who don't have much understanding can just look at a stat sheet and see that he doesn't complete a high percentage and just say he's not accurate. Kudos to the guy who pointed out that he is overly safe rather than inaccurate. Very astute. That's not to say that he's super-accurate; just that his numbers look worse, from a percentage standpoint, than they would if he just tried to chuck it in there every time. Sam Bradford's % was what, 52 for the season? Wow, only three and a half better than Tebow. He must really suck. They should draft a QB. Tebow's a young running QB who needs to improve his accuracy. It's not hard to grasp, really.

 

To whoever said Tebow doesn't have an NFL arm: his best attribute as a passer is his deep ball. That's not really even debatable. Shen he struggles is when he's trying to throw the short stuff and sometimes he tries to kill guys with it. Phil Simms brought that up, by the way (you know, the former pro bowl QB). He was also the first person I've seen compare Tebow to Brady, when he pointed out that their throwing motions are incredibly similar after they get above the hip. Tebow throws more passes over fifteen yards than anyone in the NFL. Anyone who's watched him play and thinks his arm isn't strong enough is just delusional. He needs work with his footwork to help his accuracy, and his timing and reading defenses needs to continue to mprove as well. In the Steelers game the only long pass that wasn't over thirty yards before the receiver caught it was the touchdown in OT. The rest were Tebow dropping very accurate downfield passes over single man coverage or that beautiful pass to Eddie Royal into a cover 3. There's nothing wrong with his arm.

 

The thing people need to understand about Tebow is that in the games where he is unsuccessful you can look and see clearly why. When he is playing from behind against a good defense without the support of the run game playing against a blitzing deep zone he struggles. Name me a second year QB who is good in that circumstance. Some move the ball a little better at times, but usually only until they throw a pick (speaking of which, yes, Peyton manning set the ROOKIE RECORD for most picks in a season). Tebow is not a pro bowl QB. I know very few people who think he is. What he is is a dangerous young QB who will get better with time, just like every other running QB out there has been at this point in their career. Vick's % was terrible through his first 2 seasons.

 

To address the KC game: he was awful. He was the best player for KC. Just like Brady was for this seasons first matchup with the Bills, throwing 4INTs. There was no excuse for it, and he manned up and came back with a great performance to follow it up. KC did play mostly nine guys in the box, but they rarely played ten, which is what accounted for two of Tebow's big throws against Pittsburg (2 of five over thirty yards). KC didn't do this, and Denver ran for over 250 on them. If Tebow hadn't played the most timid game of his life that would have cost them.

 

To address the d-line of Pittsburg being hurt: true, but Denver was missing their starting center and guard, which is huge against a 3-4 D like Pittsburg's. More importantly, no one really gets much pressure on Tebow. When they do he usually scrambles out of it and that's when he's at his most dangerous. They have a solid Oline and his mobility makes them look even better. There have been a couple games where the pressure got to him, but that has been the exception rather than the rule. Most importantly, the D line in a 3-4 is mostly valuable in stopping the run, which they did. 3-4 D linemen are notoriously interchangeable. Their only job is to take up space, really. So the impact was a wash to me.

 

Also, Tebow's best receiver was gone after the first qtr.

 

Tebow's TQBR, which is the new rating which is more indicative of real QB success than the old QBR, was the highest in a playoff game since they started tracking the stat in 2008... At over 95 out of 100.

 

3 of Tebow's 11 incompletions were drops. 2 were well-advised throw-aways when no one was open and he was under pressure.Two were phenomenal defensive plays by the dbacks, coming out of nowhere to break up the passes. One was a probing deep pass that was actually well thrown, but the receiver's route was cut off ( not calling for a penalty, just saying it was a good pass) 3 were bad passes, 2 thrown too far outside on comebacks, the other too short on a comeback. 3 bad passes out of 21. Not bad.

 

He's not going to look like this every game, obviously. The way to stop him is to do what KC did. Stack the line, keep 1 safety deep, hope their running game doesn't beat you by itself, and play phenomenal man D on the outside. You still gotta get lucky enough to not get beat even once like he did the first time against KC, or that they make a bunch of mistakes like they did against New England, because with only nine in the box you're not going to stop them from controlling the clock. That's what he brings to a team. He made a bad running game into the best in the league by far.

 

He gives you as good a chance of winning as any second year QB in the league.

[KandiKane 136]

Why is it that everywhere I look people of little real understanding are talking about Tim Tebow?

 

I will begin by saying that if Tebow couldn't run he'd have a hard time starting for Florida at QB right now, much less an NFL team. That being said, if Vick couldn't run I'm not sure he would have started on a good high school team at QB. Tebow is not a good passer, unless he is throwing a deep ball or to an open guy while on the run ( two things he does at a high NFL level). That's not to say he can't or won't be. He's two years in the league with no offseason work in between and no work with the starting team until 6 weeks into the season.

 

I guess people who don't have much understanding can just look at a stat sheet and see that he doesn't complete a high percentage and just say he's not accurate. Kudos to the guy who pointed out that he is overly safe rather than inaccurate. Very astute. That's not to say that he's super-accurate; just that his numbers look worse, from a percentage standpoint, than they would if he just tried to chuck it in there every time. Sam Bradford's % was what, 52 for the season? Wow, only three and a half better than Tebow. He must really suck. They should draft a QB. Tebow's a young running QB who needs to improve his accuracy. It's not hard to grasp, really.

 

To whoever said Tebow doesn't have an NFL arm: his best attribute as a passer is his deep ball. That's not really even debatable. Shen he struggles is when he's trying to throw the short stuff and sometimes he tries to kill guys with it. Phil Simms brought that up, by the way (you know, the former pro bowl QB). He was also the first person I've seen compare Tebow to Brady, when he pointed out that their throwing motions are incredibly similar after they get above the hip. Tebow throws more passes over fifteen yards than anyone in the NFL. Anyone who's watched him play and thinks his arm isn't strong enough is just delusional. He needs work with his footwork to help his accuracy, and his timing and reading defenses needs to continue to mprove as well. In the Steelers game the only long pass that wasn't over thirty yards before the receiver caught it was the touchdown in OT. The rest were Tebow dropping very accurate downfield passes over single man coverage or that beautiful pass to Eddie Royal into a cover 3. There's nothing wrong with his arm.

 

The thing people need to understand about Tebow is that in the games where he is unsuccessful you can look and see clearly why. When he is playing from behind against a good defense without the support of the run game playing against a blitzing deep zone he struggles. Name me a second year QB who is good in that circumstance. Some move the ball a little better at times, but usually only until they throw a pick (speaking of which, yes, Peyton manning set the ROOKIE RECORD for most picks in a season). Tebow is not a pro bowl QB. I know very few people who think he is. What he is is a dangerous young QB who will get better with time, just like every other running QB out there has been at this point in their career. Vick's % was terrible through his first 2 seasons.

 

To address the KC game: he was awful. He was the best player for KC. Just like Brady was for this seasons first matchup with the Bills, throwing 4INTs. There was no excuse for it, and he manned up and came back with a great performance to follow it up. KC did play mostly nine guys in the box, but they rarely played ten, which is what accounted for two of Tebow's big throws against Pittsburg (2 of five over thirty yards). KC didn't do this, and Denver ran for over 250 on them. If Tebow hadn't played the most timid game of his life that would have cost them.

 

To address the d-line of Pittsburg being hurt: true, but Denver was missing their starting center and guard, which is huge against a 3-4 D like Pittsburg's. More importantly, no one really gets much pressure on Tebow. When they do he usually scrambles out of it and that's when he's at his most dangerous. They have a solid Oline and his mobility makes them look even better. There have been a couple games where the pressure got to him, but that has been the exception rather than the rule. Most importantly, the D line in a 3-4 is mostly valuable in stopping the run, which they did. 3-4 D linemen are notoriously interchangeable. Their only job is to take up space, really. So the impact was a wash to me.

 

Also, Tebow's best receiver was gone after the first qtr.

 

Tebow's TQBR, which is the new rating which is more indicative of real QB success than the old QBR, was the highest in a playoff game since they started tracking the stat in 2008... At over 95 out of 100.

 

3 of Tebow's 11 incompletions were drops. 2 were well-advised throw-aways when no one was open and he was under pressure.Two were phenomenal defensive plays by the dbacks, coming out of nowhere to break up the passes. One was a probing deep pass that was actually well thrown, but the receiver's route was cut off ( not calling for a penalty, just saying it was a good pass) 3 were bad passes, 2 thrown too far outside on comebacks, the other too short on a comeback. 3 bad passes out of 21. Not bad.

 

He's not going to look like this every game, obviously. The way to stop him is to do what KC did. Stack the line, keep 1 safety deep, hope their running game doesn't beat you by itself, and play phenomenal man D on the outside. You still gotta get lucky enough to not get beat even once like he did the first time against KC, or that they make a bunch of mistakes like they did against New England, because with only nine in the box you're not going to stop them from controlling the clock. That's what he brings to a team. He made a bad running game into the best in the league by far.

 

He gives you as good a chance of winning as any second year QB in the league.

 

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