The Official Dwight Howard Everything Thread

[jec 427]

Whew... separated your post out into paragraphs to make it easier to read.

 

All that said, I, uh... disagree. Of all the options, I'd rather let Dwight walk. But I'm sure many others here on the forum can more eloquently explain why.

 

Also, he won't sign with the Thunder because they have KD, and I have a strong feeling he wants to be the undisputed best player on the team when he wins. KD would be the best, Rose would be the best, and their teams are already contenders for the title. Dwight wants to be the reason a team goes over the top, not just another good piece.

 

Rose is definitely not better than Howard. Durant is arguable.

 

ESPN would disagree, though.

[Secretly Space Jesus 670]

Any post claiming that acquiring Joe Johnson's contract is a good idea is a post that no one should pay attention to.

 

Also, not for nothing, but Orlando has landed marquee free agents every single time they've had max cap space. The difference between Orlando and Cleveland is that we have a proven capacity of landing high caliber FAs, and they don't.

 

As for Toronto, they haven't had a season where they had CAP space to offer anyone anything yet.

[Optimist Prime 197]

Rose is definitely not better than Howard. Durant is arguable.

 

ESPN would disagree, though.

 

Hence, my second post.

[Marc Acres 3:16 418]

Joe Johnson's contract is a team killer. All of the trades I've seen suggested involve bringing in core pieces from teams that are on the decline or just aren't very good, why would that improve us? Even if you switched Horford for Smith it doesn't make us a contender and we would be so capped out we would be stuck as is. Horford is a good player but he doesn't put you into contention and Joe Johnson outside of the 1st round series last year gains you nothing.

 

With regard to you comment about players not wanting to go to Orlando I would say that history proves otherwise. What was Horace Grant? How did we get Grant here? Tracy? Almost get Duncan? Rashard? Vince was practically begging to go here via FA. How many role players have we managed to sign? Orlando may not be a big city but it is a warm weather one with no state tax. If we clear cap space we will get FA's, you put that along with what we have and any picks we come up with and I would bet money that we bounce back faster than we would trying to work around Johnson's awful contract, Bynum's knee's, or Lopez's...lack of spine.

[DanzigMagic 11]

Yeah I'm feeling a trade with the Thunder. After we lost to the Hawks in the playoffs last season I came on the message board and said they should make a trade with OKC then. Westbrook is a top-notch player and he needs to go somewhere where he can be the star of a team. He needs to realized that in OKC, he's not going to be the star as long as they have Durant. I want to keep Dwight as much as the next man but it seems like deep down he wants to leave us.Trading with OKC would give us the star power we need to stay competive for years to come. I know people would say, "Well why would OKC trade a young stud at PG and mess with the chemistry of the team" but a player like Dwight Howard doesn't come around to often and it's much easier to replace the PG position.

 

Trade Offer:

 

Thunder Receive: C Dwight Howard, PG Jameer Nelson, SG/SF Quentin Richardson, and Von Wafer

 

Magic Receive: PG Russell Westbrook, SG James Harden, C Serge Ibaka, and 2 future 1 rd draft picks

 

Magic Starting lineup:

 

PG: Russell Westbrook

SG: Jason Richardson

SF: Hedo Turkoglu

PF: Glen Davis

C: Serge Ibaka

 

Bench:

SG: James Harden

PF: Ryan Anderson

SF: Justin Harper

SG: J.J. Redick

SG: DeAndre Liggins

SG: Larry Hughes

PG: Chris Duhon

C: Daniel Orton

 

Pretty solid team IMO, Good starting lineup and plenty of offensive firepower off the bench.

 

 

I do NOT want to lose D12, but if we have to make a trade, I would be all for this one. That would be a great run-n-gun team with lots of firepower.

 

For those that keep saying to get rid of JJ obviously haven't been watching this year. He out hustles everyone on the team and can be inserted any time through the game and be instantly effective.

[Justin Jaudon 221]

And how have those "elite" free agents worked out for Orlando? Shard was hardly elite. I doubt anyone thought orlando could build a team around him. Shard helped them get to a Championship series, but he was a thoroughly overpaid third option who started the team's salary woes. They could have had any number of guys for that money, but instead they got two decent seasons followed by a load of crap for one of the biggest contracts in the league. Going further back to the other time Orlando had cap space, They did get an elite player in Grant Hill, who managed to play a "full season" once in how many years. McGrady was luck, as not a single GM thought he could be what he turned out to be. And that same year, the city was the sole reason that the Magic didn't acquire Tim Duncan (supposedly, his wife hated Orlando, the *****). so I'm counting one out of three elite free agents Orlando could have had when they had cap space.

 

More to the point, the NBA has changed, and the players with it. Grant Hill was a different type of guy than these young guys today. These new guys are not just interested in winning; even a "character" guy like Dwight wants mostly attention and control, or he wouldn't be begging to go to a team with one player who would be starting on ANY team in the league.

 

If you don't like Joe Johnson's contract, we agree on that. My point is simply that taking on a bad contract is not the end of the world if it comes with other great pieces. Shard's contract was crap, but it wasn't until he completely tanked that he really started hurting the team with it. If he had stayed a 17-to-18 points a game player, all would have been fine. And I, for one, think that at his current level of play, Johnson is no more overpaid than JJ from a % standpoint. I think JJ is worth generously 3.5 mil a year. He makes twice that. I think Johnson is worth $15-16 mil a year, ending after 3 years. Something comparable to Paul Pierce, but he's younger, so slightly more. He makes, what, $4-6 mil a year more than that over the next 3 seasons? % wise not even close. Actually the numbers there are not even that far apart straight up. So what about Johnson's final two years or so, when he's making $10-12 mil more than he's worth? The first year of that is a loss, but the final year is easily tradable (any team looking to clear cap space would trade solid pieces for a $25 mil expiring contract), or they just eat the contract for another year and end up with huge cap space the following year. Also, I think even at 35 Joe Johnson will be a decent player; not worth 25 million, but I would bet a veteran of his skill level would be good for close to the same level of Pierce's right now at that age.

 

And as I said, Johnson's contract doesn't mean Orlando wouldn't be able to sign other good (not elite, good) players once Meer and JJ are out. Garnett is making, what $21 mil this year. They still have Pierce at like $14 mil, Rondo at $11 mil, and Jesus at $10 mil. It's all about team chemistry on the court and tradable assets in the GM's office. This can be done, but it is harder starting from scratch, and then it takes a considerable amount of luck.

[DanzigMagic 11]

Garnett is making, what $21 mil this year. They still have Pierce at like $14 mil, Rondo at $11 mil, and Jesus at $10 mil. It's all about team chemistry on the court and tradable assets in the GM's office. This can be done, but it is harder starting from scratch, and then it takes a considerable amount of luck.

 

 

I'm pretty sure if Jesus was on the team, he would be making more than 10mil. ;)

[Franchero MVP 391]

I'm pretty sure if Jesus was on the team, he would be making more than 10mil. ;)

 

Jesus Shuttlesworth aka Ray Allen.

[Marc Acres 3:16 418]

And how have those "elite" free agents worked out for Orlando? Shard was hardly elite. I doubt anyone thought orlando could build a team around him. Shard helped them get to a Championship series, but he was a thoroughly overpaid third option who started the team's salary woes. They could have had any number of guys for that money, but instead they got two decent seasons followed by a load of crap for one of the biggest contracts in the league. Going further back to the other time Orlando had cap space, They did get an elite player in Grant Hill, who managed to play a "full season" once in how many years. McGrady was luck, as not a single GM thought he could be what he turned out to be. And that same year, the city was the sole reason that the Magic didn't acquire Tim Duncan (supposedly, his wife hated Orlando, the *****). so I'm counting one out of three elite free agents Orlando could have had when they had cap space.

 

More to the point, the NBA has changed, and the players with it. Grant Hill was a different type of guy than these young guys today. These new guys are not just interested in winning; even a "character" guy like Dwight wants mostly attention and control, or he wouldn't be begging to go to a team with one player who would be starting on ANY team in the league.

 

If you don't like Joe Johnson's contract, we agree on that. My point is simply that taking on a bad contract is not the end of the world if it comes with other great pieces. Shard's contract was crap, but it wasn't until he completely tanked that he really started hurting the team with it. If he had stayed a 17-to-18 points a game player, all would have been fine. And I, for one, think that at his current level of play, Johnson is no more overpaid than JJ from a % standpoint. I think JJ is worth generously 3.5 mil a year. He makes twice that. I think Johnson is worth $15-16 mil a year, ending after 3 years. Something comparable to Paul Pierce, but he's younger, so slightly more. He makes, what, $4-6 mil a year more than that over the next 3 seasons? % wise not even close. Actually the numbers there are not even that far apart straight up. So what about Johnson's final two years or so, when he's making $10-12 mil more than he's worth? The first year of that is a loss, but the final year is easily tradable (any team looking to clear cap space would trade solid pieces for a $25 mil expiring contract), or they just eat the contract for another year and end up with huge cap space the following year. Also, I think even at 35 Joe Johnson will be a decent player; not worth 25 million, but I would bet a veteran of his skill level would be good for close to the same level of Pierce's right now at that age.

 

And as I said, Johnson's contract doesn't mean Orlando wouldn't be able to sign other good (not elite, good) players once Meer and JJ are out. Garnett is making, what $21 mil this year. They still have Pierce at like $14 mil, Rondo at $11 mil, and Jesus at $10 mil. It's all about team chemistry on the court and tradable assets in the GM's office. This can be done, but it is harder starting from scratch, and then it takes a considerable amount of luck.

 

Shard was not elite, he was however the most sought after FA that summer. Did we over pay? Of course but that was more of Otis making an error instead of it being a necessity. Who else exactly was available that offseason that would have been a better fit? Gerald Wallace was out there but Otis didn't target him. He wasn't brought in to build a team around him, he was brought in to improve the team around Dwight which he did. He was a 3rd option because he was passive, had he been more aggressive he should have been 2nd option but that is another discussion all together. If you want to argue that Otis picked the wrong guy then I can see your point there but that isn't what we are talking about, we wanted a FA and we got him.

 

With regard to Grant what does our misfortune with him have to do with getting a FA we targeted? They are two different discussions. Chicago and Miami both wanted the same guys we targeted, who ended up with Grant and Tracy? You are 100% wrong about what GM's thought about Tracy. At minimum they were talking about him being a Scottie Pippen type defender/scorer/distributor and teaming him with Grant was supposed to give us a Jordan-Pippen 1-2 punch. I'm sure that someone can find an artical or two that confirms that. Chicago was dieing to get their hands on him because they knew he was going to be an impact player.

 

As far as Tim goes his girlfriend liked SA better than Orl and a big part of that was because SA would allow her to fly on the team plane with him where as we would not cater to her. Now you can argue that he agreed with her or that the team catering to her needs had nothing to do with his selection (I would disagree) but how do you explain it being a tough decision for him in the first place if Orl is such a crappy FA destination? He had already won a title, he loved SA, he had David Robinson (granted a broken down David) but he still had to really think about whether he wanted to stay or go.

 

I couldn't disagree with you more about the players not caring about winning. They care about 2 things winning and money. They have zero loyalty so if you can team them up with another alpha dog and give them a max contract as long as you are not in Siberia...or Cleveland you've got them and Orl is FAR from either of those two.

 

Joe Johnson has won what? Does he put any team into contention? He's a jump shooter who doesn't defend well and doesn't get to the line much so when he slows down even more than he already has what are you left with? There is no comparison between him and Pierce because Pierce gets to the line, he can create offense. Do you honestly believe that JJ making 7 million hurts more than Joe chewing up 20 of your cap? Regardless of what you think with regard to their production vs their contract if you subtract 20 mill from your cap for a guy that doesn't get you a title vs 7 mill for a guy that doesn't get you a title you still don't have a title. The difference is I have 13 million freaking dollars more to work with to get some help if I have JJ vs Joe Johnson, why do you think ATL has been a middle of the pack team for so long??

 

Orl would be able to sign mid level guys once a year, depending on how far over they are that may be the 3mill variety instead of the 5, you will get decent guys but not ones that put you over the top. You have to get a true max worth player when you have the space or you end up with a team full of middle of the pack talent while you are paying for top level, that is the recipe for a 5 seed or lower and 1st or 2nd round exits. You use Boston as an example what were those guys making when they got them? Not the contracts they have recently signed while taking pay cuts, what were KG, Pierce, and Ray making when they picked them up? What do you think Rondo is going to want? That didn't take luck that took a miracle to make that happen and you want to base our future on that as a plan?? We would have to have 1 max guy, convince him to stay while we tank to get a high pick, trade that pick for another max guy, then find a former team member who happens to be a GM who will trade us a 3rd max guy while drafting a 4th guy that fits well within our system. Is that a plan or a thank you 8lb 10oz baby jeebus for saving my GM job with your devine intervention?

[barnettej 263]

And how have those "elite" free agents worked out for Orlando? Shard was hardly elite. I doubt anyone thought orlando could build a team around him. Shard helped them get to a Championship series, but he was a thoroughly overpaid third option who started the team's salary woes. They could have had any number of guys for that money, but instead they got two decent seasons followed by a load of crap for one of the biggest contracts in the league. Going further back to the other time Orlando had cap space, They did get an elite player in Grant Hill, who managed to play a "full season" once in how many years. McGrady was luck, as not a single GM thought he could be what he turned out to be. And that same year, the city was the sole reason that the Magic didn't acquire Tim Duncan (supposedly, his wife hated Orlando, the *****). so I'm counting one out of three elite free agents Orlando could have had when they had cap space.

 

More to the point, the NBA has changed, and the players with it. Grant Hill was a different type of guy than these young guys today. These new guys are not just interested in winning; even a "character" guy like Dwight wants mostly attention and control, or he wouldn't be begging to go to a team with one player who would be starting on ANY team in the league.

 

If you don't like Joe Johnson's contract, we agree on that. My point is simply that taking on a bad contract is not the end of the world if it comes with other great pieces. Shard's contract was crap, but it wasn't until he completely tanked that he really started hurting the team with it. If he had stayed a 17-to-18 points a game player, all would have been fine. And I, for one, think that at his current level of play, Johnson is no more overpaid than JJ from a % standpoint. I think JJ is worth generously 3.5 mil a year. He makes twice that. I think Johnson is worth $15-16 mil a year, ending after 3 years. Something comparable to Paul Pierce, but he's younger, so slightly more. He makes, what, $4-6 mil a year more than that over the next 3 seasons? % wise not even close. Actually the numbers there are not even that far apart straight up. So what about Johnson's final two years or so, when he's making $10-12 mil more than he's worth? The first year of that is a loss, but the final year is easily tradable (any team looking to clear cap space would trade solid pieces for a $25 mil expiring contract), or they just eat the contract for another year and end up with huge cap space the following year. Also, I think even at 35 Joe Johnson will be a decent player; not worth 25 million, but I would bet a veteran of his skill level would be good for close to the same level of Pierce's right now at that age.

 

And as I said, Johnson's contract doesn't mean Orlando wouldn't be able to sign other good (not elite, good) players once Meer and JJ are out. Garnett is making, what $21 mil this year. They still have Pierce at like $14 mil, Rondo at $11 mil, and Jesus at $10 mil. It's all about team chemistry on the court and tradable assets in the GM's office. This can be done, but it is harder starting from scratch, and then it takes a considerable amount of luck.

 

 

I would rather take a bag of skittles than what your suggesting. Lets face it the Hawks are screwed right now, they are about to become the next "NBA OWNED" team because no one "Buyer" believes in the current roster and its salary. If you wait long enough you can have the same situation go down with the Hawks in the same manner as NO and LAC.

 

Lewis coming here was not about bringing an "Elite" guy here. It was about bringing a lengthy shooter, who can post up and grab some rebounds when needed. We made it to the 2009 Finals because of Lewis. So that huge salary of 110 Million got us to the finals atleast once while he was here, which is more of a payoff than you could conceive. There are many 100 mill players that have never seen the finals or even the ECF/WCF for that matter.

 

Besides Lewis made Lebron leave Cleveland, with that last second turn around 3pt shot for the win.... Dude was Cold Blooded. And it was worth the money we paid him to see Lebron cry.....

 

Now the NBA has changed, allowing the "Wing" to become the primary scorer. The only way to defend yourself from the new rules is to have lock down defenders, or length, or a decent Center to try and force the action away from the rim. With out any of those on your team, your not going to see many wins against the teams who are stacked with them. When you dont win games, you dont sell tickets, you dont sell jerseys, you dont sell.... jack. You implode and waist 100's of millions dollars that you spent purchasing the team and upgrading everything within it. Its the reason why trading Dwight now, or later is not in the best interest of the Magic organization.

 

Dwight and Shaq are not the same (surprised... i know). Shaq grew up hopping around from base to base, Shaq essentially was used to being a nomad. Shaq has went from Orlando to LA, from LA to Miami, From Miami to Phoenix, from Phoenix to Boston, From Boston to ?. So where does Shaq call home? Shaq screwed himself because he will never have a city that he can actually call home from a professional level. Dwight is not a nomad, has not moved from city to city to city. His growing up life has been grounded and solid. Dwight understands the importance of creating his own legacy. This is the same guy who wants to replace the Jerry West logo with a Christian Cross. Dwight cannot take the records he has made with Orlando with him, Dwight could never replicate what he has done here with anyone else.

 

We have Dwight, and will have Dwight when this is over... 30 Million more than anyone else is a hard thing to leave on the table. And endorsements are only a "mouse click" away because the internet has shrunk the world to the size of a pea now.

 

As for Joe Johnson, he should of stayed with Phoenix..... Atlanta was a horrible move for him.

[DanzigMagic 11]

We have Dwight, and will have Dwight when this is over... 30 Million more than anyone else is a hard thing to leave on the table. And endorsements are only a "mouse click" away because the internet has shrunk the world to the size of a pea now.

 

That's why no trade should happen until the end of the season. If all else fails, at the very least, we can do a sign and trade.

[Secretly Space Jesus 670]

Tim Duncan was all but set to sign here. He has said so.

 

David Robinson had to get on a plane and go to his house to talk him out of it.

 

 

And your Boston example is terrible, specifically because Boston CAN'T sign free agents. It's why they had to trade away all their youth to bring in increasingly useless veterans. The only reason the Bass for Davis/Wafer trade happened was because Boston needed to shed salary so badly because their cap situation is handicapping them.