Sabian Jackson 0 Report post Posted March 9, 2011 Dirk, LeBron, and Howard are all better scorers, LeBron a better play maker, rebounder, defender, etc, etc. Just because you think the Heat should have 0 losses, doesn't mean they're underachieving. Those players don't fit in very well and their bench is just awful. The Heat being 0-2 without LeBron also helps his case. Clutch situations is just such a silly thing to actually base an entire year of basketball with, but if you're going to continue to try to make a huge fuss about it, try to expand it a bit more than "game winners" because if you were going to talk exclusive game winners from this year Kobe Bryant would be one of the least clutch players in the league. I think against Cleveland alone he missed around 5 shots that would've otherwise tied the game or given them the lead (in the last 2 minutes) http://www.82games.c...011/CSORT11.HTM Really, Rose isn't the best at anything he does (except maybe cross overs that lead to OOHS and AHHS from the crowd that leads to bricks). I can't honestly agree with giving the MVP to a guy that's not the best at anything!!! He has one of the highest usage percentages in the league and essentially involved in every single offensive play, yet his team is a below average offensive team. What does that say about Rose? I wasn't talking specifically game winners, i.e. a shot to win the game in the last few seconds. I was going on crunch time scoring. As in the last minute or so of play in a close game. We all know that Bryant would be the guy to give the ball to when you need a score, and the same goes for Rose in my opinion. For us, Dwight is possibly our best option, but that surely isn't out of choice, since he is probably the only person on our team with even the remotest chance of actually beating a player. It's not like we have a wealth of talent to choose from. If Rose has the ball, there are far more strategies to actually get a good shot than with Dwight. Now, as I said before, him being on a better team helps his cause a lot, and although that doesn't necessarily mean he did it all himself, he is the face of the franchise, and he is the reason the franchise are where they are today. If they don't get Rose in the draft a few years ago, they are nowhere near this position now. That surely is "value". I did also ask about what criteria makes an MVP, and I am yet to see an answer to it. I think that is an important thing for us to decide and agree on before we can really discuss this with some sort of conclusion on the horizon. Does someone being the best at something really make them an MVP? If so, then Love or Durant or Rondo or Bogut should win it since they are the "best" this season at various stats. I'm not sure Dwight actually leads the lead in anything other than the amount of times he gets fouled or the amount of technical fouls he gets. However, having said that, there are few who would argue that either of those four guys deserves it anywhere near as much as Dwight. Bogut is a worse center on a worse team, Durant is a pure scorer who doesn't do much else, Love simply rebounds a lot whilst being on a terrible team (who wouldn't be much worse off without him) and Rondo plays on a great team and has the benefit of great teammates who know their role. Why is it that Dwight deserves it more than them though? Lastly, I don't think the argument that if we did a fantasy draft, no-one would pass on Dwight holds much water. I'm sure that most would agree that Lebron is easily the best player in the league, and given the way the league is officiated, why would you pass on the guy that has proven he can do everything really well, whilst getting the benefit of the being a perimeter guy? Does this mean he deserves the MVP? No, because its not a "who is the best player" contest. This leads me back to the the question that I think is most important. What makes someone an MVP? EDIT: And to the person that says "Dwight just needs an orange ball", I think you might be over-estimating his ability to get to the basket. He obviously needs the benefit of good players to get him the ball in the right area. Give him the ball on the 3 pt line and he's probably one of the worst players in the league. You simply cannot use the argument that Rose needs good teammates while Dwight can do it all himself. Rose can score given the ball in most areas. Dwight cannot score unless he has the ball in and around the paint, nor would you trust him to get himself and the ball into that position without any help. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BMP 424 Report post Posted March 9, 2011 The only thing the Bulls wouldn't have if they didn't have Rose would be the insane amount of hype they have now. Rose is not that good. The only thing he does well is score and he's not even a top 5 scorer. It's not just about being the best one at a certain stat but you have to certain excel at a number of things because if you don't then what is to say you're the MVP? Again, I want to know why exactly Rose is the league's MVP out on the court. I don't care about unmeasurable intangibles that people have been making up. Everything you said about Rose can be said about Howard tenfold. Same with Dirk. I want to know what Rose does on the basketball court that makes him a better candidate than Howard and Dirk. No, I don't care about crunch time stats (in which he's posting a beautiful 38% shooting). I don't care that he "looks" like their leader, all of these candidates are the leaders of their respective teams. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fultz4thewin 2,464 Report post Posted March 9, 2011 The only thing the Bulls wouldn't have if they didn't have Rose would be the insane amount of hype they have now. Rose is not that good. The only thing he does well is score and he's not even a top 5 scorer. It's not just about being the best one at a certain stat but you have to certain excel at a number of things because if you don't then what is to say you're the MVP? Again, I want to know why exactly Rose is the league's MVP out on the court. I don't care about unmeasurable intangibles that people have been making up. Everything you said about Rose can be said about Howard tenfold. Same with Dirk. I want to know what Rose does on the basketball court that makes him a better candidate than Howard and Dirk. No, I don't care about crunch time stats (in which he's posting a beautiful 38% shooting). I don't care that he "looks" like their leader, all of these candidates are the leaders of their respective teams. and his usage is just astronomical. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sabian Jackson 0 Report post Posted March 9, 2011 I'll get round to a proper reply soon, but for now you'll just have to put up with a little bit of some other peoples opinions on our little debate. Enjoy http://hangtime.blogs.nba.com/2011/03/09/blogtable-real-mvp-candidates/ Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Optimist Prime 197 Report post Posted March 10, 2011 Something that comes to mind: when did the Bulls become such a great team? Earlier this season, though Rose was boasting the same round-about numbers he has now, they weren't considered a great team until later in the season. What changed? Did Rose step up his game and usage? No. Did Rose step up to the leadership plate and bring his team into the winning mindset? No. What changed is that they gained cohesion on the defensive end. This is because they had to adjust to their new coach, not because of anything Rose has done. Thibs has done a great job with his team, and Rose should not be getting the credit for the job his coach has done. This is pretty much the exact opposite of what happened when Mike Brown won coach of the year. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
VCplusD12 91 Report post Posted March 10, 2011 Kevin Love just broke the NBA record with 52 consecutive double-doubles. LMAO at some guys that were saying they wouldn't want Love here in Orlando earlier in the season Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Optimist Prime 197 Report post Posted March 10, 2011 Kevin Love just broke the NBA record with 52 consecutive double-doubles. LMAO at some guys that were saying they wouldn't want Love here in Orlando earlier in the season I didn't know Stats = Championship. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Manu Ginobili 61 Report post Posted March 10, 2011 The only thing the Bulls wouldn't have if they didn't have Rose would be the insane amount of hype they have now. Rose is not that good. The only thing he does well is score and he's not even a top 5 scorer. It's not just about being the best one at a certain stat but you have to certain excel at a number of things because if you don't then what is to say you're the MVP? Again, I want to know why exactly Rose is the league's MVP out on the court. I don't care about unmeasurable intangibles that people have been making up. Everything you said about Rose can be said about Howard tenfold. Same with Dirk. I want to know what Rose does on the basketball court that makes him a better candidate than Howard and Dirk. No, I don't care about crunch time stats (in which he's posting a beautiful 38% shooting). I don't care that he "looks" like their leader, all of these candidates are the leaders of their respective teams. The Bulls wouldn't be nearly as good as they are now without Rose. Rose is the motor that keeps them running. He is the team leader, he handles every offensive posession, he is intense in D and he is clutch in the final moments. I dont know if MVP, but you make it sound like he is not even a top 10 player nowadays, and that's a gross underestimation. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Secretly Space Jesus 670 Report post Posted March 10, 2011 I dont know if MVP, but you make it sound like he is not even a top 10 player nowadays, and that's a gross underestimation. *******BEGIN TRANSMISSION******* Off the top of Great Lord Xenu's head: Lebron, Wade, Dwight, Kobe, Dirk, Paul, Dwill, and Durant are all clearly better. Then you get into the Melo, Amare, Westbrook, Rondo, and Rose portion of the list. So he is, at absolute best, the 9th best player in the NBA. *******END TRANSMISSION******* Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cpower 13 Report post Posted March 10, 2011 Rose got so much love coz the lack of the dominate superstars in this league right now. Boston and San Antonio played team basketball, Lakers and Miami are below expectations, Magic and OKC are barely improving. I think it will comes down to DRose and Dirk, but since DRose is the new star. he will get it. If Magic ends up with No2 record in the east , Dwight will have a great chance, otherwise I dont see anyone winning it other than Rose. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fultz4thewin 2,464 Report post Posted March 10, 2011 Kevin Love just broke the NBA record with 52 consecutive double-doubles. LMAO at some guys that were saying they wouldn't want Love here in Orlando earlier in the season Kevin Love is like Diet Dwight. All the stats of Dwight without the winning. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BMP 424 Report post Posted March 10, 2011 The Bulls wouldn't be nearly as good as they are now without Rose. Rose is the motor that keeps them running. He is the team leader, he handles every offensive posession, he is intense in D and he is clutch in the final moments. I dont know if MVP, but you make it sound like he is not even a top 10 player nowadays, and that's a gross underestimation. What makes Rose the leader? What about Noah? Thibs? Hell, even Deng? Yes, he handles every offensive possession (like every single ball dominant PG in this league). He handles every offensive possession and that team doesn't even have a top 15 offense. He could be the most "intense" player in the league, he's still a below average defender. And it depends on what you mean by clutch. If by clutch you mean he takes about 20 shots in crunch time every other game and maybe makes 5 of those shots, then yes. . . he's very "clutch" he's barely a top 10 player, as I've said before and DoM pointed out Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
