BMP 424 Report post Posted March 8, 2011 Sure, Dwight was definitely much more efficient at scoring than Rose. He does however do a lot of things that are considered very bad for the team, such as turning it over a lot, missing free throws (which should be easy), and in that particular game, getting out-rebounded by a poor player. I would also point out that in a lot of our losses, Dwight still has big games, but we still lose. Therefore, it could be argued that he can't make us win games with his great numbers. These all negatively affect his MVP candidacy. The one major positive Rose obviously has is that when his team needs it, he can invariably get points scored. Dwight won't ever really be able to do this. No it can't. Go take a look at the games the Magic lost in which Dwight had a great game and check out just how well the team played defensively. Oh, and is this 2007 still? Dwight has been awesome in crunch time for the Magic this year, and has been the only guy that has been able to deliver points when the team most needed it. Never mind the fact that Dwight is shooting nearly 2x as better in crunch time than Rose, but the fact that he will always get the team points is a huge plus. Dwight shooting 59% from the foul line on every possession (although it has been 66.7% during crunch time this year) is better than what most players can give. And about Dwight's turnovers, they're actually not that bad. For the amount he has the ball, his turnovers aren't such a big problem, unless they come from offensive fouls. Percentage wise, Dwight turns the ball over less than Hedo, Jameer, Arenas, Duhon, and JWill Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Optimist Prime 197 Report post Posted March 8, 2011 Asik had at least two air balls fall into his hands in that game. Dwight is the leader of this team on and off the court. When he called out the teams dedication after the Sacramento loss, that was MVP quality leadership. He is also the main reason this team is as good defensively as they are. Also, the Bulls win games because of their defense, not because Rose makes 43 percent of his shots. He is not their big defensive stopper. And you point out that the Bulls' offense runs through him, but to be fair, he is their PG. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Perciville Jones 26 Report post Posted March 8, 2011 Of course centers are going to shoot efficiently from the field. They get all their points 2 feet from the basket. Derp. I think Rose has more control over his team than Dwight does. Dwight has to call out his teammates and talk to the media rather than do it with the players in the locker room. That stuff should stay in the locker room, period. Also, to BMP and your comments, I'm having a hard time digesting what you're saying. Are you saying that most players can't give over 59% from the freethrow line or 66% during crunch time? Where did you get that stat? You also said that Dwight turns the ball over less than Hedo, Jameer, Arenas, Duhon, and JWill. For one JWill handled the ball very well and rarely turned it over. Second why are you putting JWill into this equation? He's not with the team anymore so it's a useless comparison. You basically said that Dwight does better with turnovers than all our pointguards and ballhandlers. Ok.....well the pointguards do all the ballhandling and passing so of course they're going to have turnovers. All Dwight has to do is catch and finish. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BMP 424 Report post Posted March 8, 2011 Of course centers are going to shoot efficiently from the field. They get all their points 2 feet from the basket. Derp. I think Rose has more control over his team than Dwight does. Dwight has to call out his teammates and talk to the media rather than do it with the players in the locker room. That stuff should stay in the locker room, period. Also, to BMP and your comments, I'm having a hard time digesting what you're saying. Are you saying that most players can't give over 59% from the freethrow line or 66% during crunch time? Where did you get that stat? You also said that Dwight turns the ball over less than Hedo, Jameer, Arenas, Duhon, and JWill. For one JWill handled the ball very well and rarely turned it over. Second why are you putting JWill into this equation? He's not with the team anymore so it's a useless comparison. You basically said that Dwight does better with turnovers than all our pointguards and ballhandlers. Ok.....well the pointguards do all the ballhandling and passing so of course they're going to have turnovers. All Dwight has to do is catch and finish. The average TS% for centers alone is 55%. Howard is at 61.8%. Average for point guards is at 53.2% with Rose being at a mediocre 53.5% while guys like Nash, Chris Paul, and DWill are well above 58%. Rose hasn't had to deal with the problems the Magic faced, so he hasn't had to call anyone out. Besides, Rose doesn't play at the level Howard plays and certainly hasn't earned the right to call anyone out. What I was saying is that Howard shooting 59% from the FT line and his usual 60% from the field (over 70% from the field during crunch time and 66% from the foul line) is better basketball than most players shooting 40% and hardly getting to the line. The point with ballhandling is that even such "great" ballhandlers like JWill turn the ball over more Dwight does. And no, not all Dwight has to do is catch and finish. He's not Tyson Chandler. He gets isolated A LOT and has to put the ball on the floor. The average turnover rate for centers in this league is 16.72, Dwight turns the ball over less than average at 15.49. Why is this relevant? Because while he has some high turnover numbers a game, you have to take into account that he does also have the ball a lot. The points I was trying to refute were that Dwight does NOT turn the ball over at a high rate (in fact, he does it less often than most of the league), and that he is a better option in the clutch (and while the numbers back this up I'd like to make it clear that this is something I've noticed from watching the games all year and even if those numbers didn't exist I'd still have the same opinion, it's just nice to have something to back up my claim). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Perciville Jones 26 Report post Posted March 8, 2011 The average TS% for centers alone is 55%. Howard is at 61.8%. Average for point guards is at 53.2% with Rose being at a mediocre 53.5% while guys like Nash, Chris Paul, and DWill are well above 58%. Rose hasn't had to deal with the problems the Magic faced, so he hasn't had to call anyone out. Besides, Rose doesn't play at the level Howard plays and certainly hasn't earned the right to call anyone out. What I was saying is that Howard shooting 59% from the FT line and his usual 60% from the field (over 70% from the field during crunch time and 66% from the foul line) is better basketball than most players shooting 40% and hardly getting to the line. The point with ballhandling is that even such "great" ballhandlers like JWill turn the ball over more Dwight does. And no, not all Dwight has to do is catch and finish. He's not Tyson Chandler. He gets isolated A LOT and has to put the ball on the floor. The average turnover rate for centers in this league is 16.72, Dwight turns the ball over less than average at 15.49. Why is this relevant? Because while he has some high turnover numbers a game, you have to take into account that he does also have the ball a lot. The points I was trying to refute were that Dwight does NOT turn the ball over at a high rate (in fact, he does it less often than most of the league), and that he is a better option in the clutch (and while the numbers back this up I'd like to make it clear that this is something I've noticed from watching the games all year and even if those numbers didn't exist I'd still have the same opinion, it's just nice to have something to back up my claim). Appreciate the explanation. I still think Rose is the MVP. Dwight is second. If Dwight averaged over 22 and raised his freethrow percentage to a decent percentage I would probably give him the nod. I had Lebron at 3rd, buuuuutt he is not closing games and he's given the ball most possesions. His numbers are great but his inability to close games puts him off my mvp list. In that Heat/ Bulls game at the end of the 4th Rose delivered some tough buckets and Lebron did not. Who is third though?....ummmmm...Kevin Durant? no. Kobe? heck no. Amare? Not anymore. So it's basically Rose and Dwight but if I had to add a third at this point, it's Kevin Love. Dudes a beast on the boards. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Perciville Jones 26 Report post Posted March 8, 2011 Also, Rose is putting up career numbers and I'm sure his percentage will increase with experience. He does have some bad shot selection but when he gets into the lane, he's one of the best to finish. He's only in his third year, he will get better as he gets older and more patient with his shot selection like other great pointguards we have in this league. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BMP 424 Report post Posted March 8, 2011 Also, Rose is putting up career numbers and I'm sure his percentage will increase with experience. He does have some bad shot selection but when he gets into the lane, he's one of the best to finish. He's only in his third year, he will get better as he gets older and more patient with his shot selection like other great pointguards we have in this league. You see, but potential and expectations should never be a factor when deciding the league's current MVP. I see so many people talking about how Rose has evolved etc etc but just because people's expectations weren't high, it doesn't mean it should give him extra brownie points. Give him MIP, the MVP Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Perciville Jones 26 Report post Posted March 8, 2011 You see, but potential and expectations should never be a factor when deciding the league's current MVP. I see so many people talking about how Rose has evolved etc etc but just because people's expectations weren't high, it doesn't mean it should give him extra brownie points. Give him MIP, the MVP Well that is more for the future. This season he's putting up career numbers. You can't take that away from him. His 3point % isn't that good at all but it is a massive improvement from last year. I mean he's already made more 3's this season than his first two combined. That's good. He's leading his team past the Magic. They could be a second seed team by season's end. That is attributed to him and his team. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BMP 424 Report post Posted March 8, 2011 Well that is more for the future. This season he's putting up career numbers. You can't take that away from him. His 3point % isn't that good at all but it is a massive improvement from last year. I mean he's already made more 3's this season than his first two combined. That's good. He's leading his team past the Magic. They could be a second seed team by season's end. That is attributed to him and his team. Why is it attributed to him? Because he chucks up the most shots? Because he was voted their only All-Star? Chicago has been winning because of their defense, not their crappy offense. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Perciville Jones 26 Report post Posted March 8, 2011 Why is it attributed to him? Because he chucks up the most shots? Because he was voted their only All-Star? Chicago has been winning because of their defense, not their crappy offense. Yes their defense does win them games. They have great offense too. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jec 427 Report post Posted March 8, 2011 Yes their defense does win them games. They have great offense too. No, they don't have great offense. When you have to sign Kyle Korver just to get some decent shooting out there, you have a problem. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BMP 424 Report post Posted March 8, 2011 Yes their defense does win them games. They have great offense too. For a playoff team, their offense is terrible. I mean, their main focus offensively is to get the most inefficient shot in basketball, as they have no one (with the exception of Korver) who can shoot the 3 well. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
