Religion

[Fultz4thewin 2,464]

i guess i just feel like we have a right to appeal to a higher authority on the subject, since, lets face it, none of us really have the credentials in these fields. i feel like weve ventured very far from the subject of the thread though, and i got sick over this weekend and probably shouldnt be spending so much time on here. ive enjoyed talking with yall and ill try to get back tomorrow and talk some more if theres anything new. ill let you know if i hear of any cool studies.

 

btw, have any of you read up on stephen hawkings new argument for the creation of the universe? havent had the time to look over it at all, wondering if you have any thoughts.

 

i heard he had a new idea. haven't read into it though.

[Secretly Space Jesus 670]

"without gods" means absence of gods. so yes, technically it does mean denial. unless we want to the phrase anti-theist to mean extreme atheism. agnostic, "without knowledge", aka unknowing. these are the basic definitions of the words. if you claim to be an atheist you are taking a stance on the absence of a deity.

 

"An atheist doesn't have to be someone who thinks he has a proof that there can't be a god. He only has to be someone who believes that the evidence on the God question is at a similar level to the evidence on the werewolf question."

~John McCarthy

[Secretly Space Jesus 670]

the first thing i would say is that in todays society, thats just not what atheist means.

 

I'm curious as to what this opinion is based on.

[Fultz4thewin 2,464]

I'm curious as to what this opinion is based on.

 

I think it makes sense. Popular culture shifts definitions away from academia quite often.

[Secretly Space Jesus 670]

I think it makes sense. Popular culture shifts definitions away from academia quite often.

 

Oh, I know that.

 

I meant I was curious as to where the opinion that the word "atheist" in general was synonymous with "anti-theist" came from.

 

Dawkins and Hitchens are both anti-theist, I suppose(although I'd argue that both are more anti-organized religion than actually antitheist) and they're probably the world's two most famous "professional atheists" I guess, but saying that a definition that fits them automatically fits all is on par with me saying that all Republicans are Glenn Beck and Sean Hannity and all Democrats are Ted Kennedy and Keith Olbermann.

 

It's at best inaccurate and at worst intellectually dishonest.

[GhostAnime 50]

the first thing i would say is that in todays society, thats just not what atheist means. it has been changed to go further and mean anti-theist. the proper term for what you are speaking of in todays world is non-theist.

 

Well, let's see, outside of what Nation of Hedos mentioned as possible ways to decide what atheist means, what else is there?

 

1) The ol' "Look in any normal general dictionary, silly!"

 

Definition of ATHEISM

1

archaic : ungodliness, wickedness

2

a : a disbelief in the existence of deity b : the doctrine that there is no deity

 

Merriam gives both definitions.

 

–noun

a person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being or beings.

 

Dictionary.com makes the distinction too.

 

Too lazy to find others (I'm terribly lagging at the moment), but I'm positive there were a couple of sites that only list "rejection", "denial", or even "that no deities exist."

 

Well, if the dictionaries all don't say the same thing, where else could our idea of atheism come from?

 

2) Atheists themselves

 

Really, in my experience, I've met maybe 1 out of 10 self-proclaimed Atheists who literally posit absolutely no god of any kind exists. You don't have to take my word for it, but I am in plenty of atheistic communities. The most they will absolutely deny is the Judeo-Christian God (which, there are actually many logical arguments for).

 

But rarely have I ever seen complete denial period. This is just anecdotal and I'm sure others can vouch for me.

 

So then, if some dictionaries make distinctions, and atheists actually don't claim what people usually expect them to claim, what is the problem?

 

3) Agnosticism

 

I think this is probably where the problem comes in (oh, and because people hate dissecting the entire definition in dictionaries too..). What reason is there to think that an atheist can actually hold non-belief and not claim to know anything when you have the word agnostic tossed in there? Agnostic is just as twisted and turned as atheist is. To give a brief history of agnosticism, it didn't even originally refer to god (hence why it says without knowledge.. and that knowledge could have referred to *anything*). Basically some guy in Europe (can't remember the country) joined a club of philosophers/thinkers and wanted a way to separate himself from them. He came up with the word agnostic (literally without knowledge). Most of the things they discussed actually didn't talk about deities that much but rather other intangible ideas and concepts.

 

So then we come 100 years later and everybody assumes agnostic is 'middle-ground'. Then atheism suddenly loses its broad meaning and turns into only being viewed extremely even by other classes of non-believers.

 

If you want to be as technical as possible (and I am aware that there are plenty of stances on this, so I'm just giving mine), since agnostic refers to knowledge and atheism refers to belief, there is nothing out there that says a theist or atheist can't be agnostic. Thus, simply saying "I'm agnostic" only says what you know, but it doesn't say what you believe.

 

Then you have it divided in four main groups:

 

gnostic theist

agnostic theist

agnostic atheist

gnostic theist

 

That is kinda the way I look at it, but I still just say "atheist" because people always ask what I believe, not what I know.

 

tl;dr: society r dum.

[Emory889 353]

The way I always understood it was Agnostics believe there maybe a god but don't follow any religion based on it. I've heard a lot of Agnostics say they "like the idea of a god." I kind of like that definition. People that like the idea of a god.

 

I'm an Aethiest. I don't believe there is a god. However, I'm certainly not going to say that there is no chance that one exists. The way I see it, I can't make an absolute statement on a subject that I don't have all the answers on.

[GhostAnime 50]

Of course from my experiences agnostics/atheists, while may have the same opinions about organized religion, may still tend to go about it differently.

 

In my experiences.. I think the characteristics truly show that the atheists seem to be more confident in being a non-believer and are much more likely to offer science as an alternative. Meanwhile, agnostics may still be "spiritual" and give books like the Bible a bit more credit.

 

This is only based on characteristics of what I've seen, though. Overall it really doesn't matter. They're just words and we give them meaning. Our beliefs are the most important part of ourselves and again, the only way you'll truly know the stance of a person is if you get to know them.

[sharp/7/shooter 23]

I label myself as 'agnostic' because I am at a point where I am not quite sure if there is a divine existence or not. I am searching for something that I can truly, unconditionally believe in with my heart and soul.

 

BTW, GhostAnime, thanks for those last couple of posts clarifying the meaning behind atheism and agnosticism. IMO, there are many people who confuse these terms and look upon them in a negative light.

[My 6th Rebuild 6]

WOW!! This went many pages!! Great to read peeps debating w/o calling other peeps names.

 

My next 2 cents.

 

I am 32 years old and I can say that 9 months ago I went about life, not really going to church or reading the bible or anything. I prayed but not really either. I believed in God but never really payed much attention. I even had my doubts. I always prayed for my families good health and maybe said a few prayers. I fell into depression around February and something hit my mind to pick up a bible and read it. Along with my wife and kid, the bible comforted me. During the height of my depression I would go to sleep between 10pm and 12am and my eyes would open up at 2am, wide awake. I would not be able to go to sleep at all and I did not feel right waking my wife up to talk to me. I would get out of bed, grab the bible, and sit in the bathroom and read, and I found comfort in reading. I read the new testament. Shortly there after my depression magically went away. I'm not sure how severe my depression was but I remember the feeling of painful gases flowing through my body and I would start to cry any time, any place, any where. I did not eat hardly anything. I would assume that most people that go through what I did would seek the help of a mental professional to try to get out of this depression.

 

Now I speak to God with my heart and he listens and he answers me. It's not like I hear a voice in my head or anything but God responds to me through things in life, through people, animals, object, it's hard to explain. I could be at work doing something and God will respond to me about something and I know its him because I get this spiritual feeling that enters my body then leaves. Crazy huh? It's not, it feels good.

 

It's not an age thing either, I have a friend who is born-again. When we were in high school together he was the farthest thing from a christian telling me once that when you die and if you go to hell, you can be an officer in the devils armies. The following year something hit him and he turned himself over to god. He went all the way to Oklahoma in hopes of becoming a Pastor. Now he lives in Utah, studying to be a baker so that he can open a bakery as a place where he can talk about Jesus, basically to the Mormons. I remember being 19 and him talking to me about god and I would think to myself "lets talk about girls". It's not maturity but something just hits you like it hit me this year and it hit my friend back in high school.

 

The earth is due now for some biblical stuff to happen. You just got to keep your eyes on Israel. Israel was a kingdom that ended due to Roman rule. The 2nd temple was destroyed in 70 AD. Israel is a country once again and you know they are itching to build the 3rd temple, the temple that the anti-Christ will sit in to rule the world. Iran is building nukes, the whole region wants to take Israel out. Israel is itching for a reason to take out the Mosque to build the 3rd temple.

 

Lewis4TheWin: I'm sorry to hear about your fathers cancer. I remember you posting your father had cancer back when we were debating health care reform. My Mother-In-Law has been fighting cancer for 3 years. I was hoping you can send me a link to some of the info your mother found in supplements to go along with chemo/radiation. I pray that all goes well with your father and he is able to once again make the Doctors ask themselves: "How?"

[Fultz4thewin 2,464]

I'm not sure how severe my depression was but I remember the feeling of painful gases flowing through my body and I would start to cry any time

 

 

sorry, this was necessary

 

Lewis4TheWin: I'm sorry to hear about your fathers cancer. I remember you posting your father had cancer back when we were debating health care reform. My Mother-In-Law has been fighting cancer for 3 years. I was hoping you can send me a link to some of the info your mother found in supplements to go along with chemo/radiation. I pray that all goes well with your father and he is able to once again make the Doctors ask themselves: "How?"

 

there's a lot of info here http://www.caringbridge.org/visit/jimbroderick

[Emory889 353]

The earth is due now for some biblical stuff to happen. You just got to keep your eyes on Israel. Israel was a kingdom that ended due to Roman rule. The 2nd temple was destroyed in 70 AD. Israel is a country once again and you know they are itching to build the 3rd temple, the temple that the anti-Christ will sit in to rule the world. Iran is building nukes, the whole region wants to take Israel out. Israel is itching for a reason to take out the Mosque to build the 3rd temple

 

Man, I've been hearing the exact same message for 3 decades now. I know the Middle East is volatile but it's the same message over and over from fire and brimstone preachers. If I had a dollar for every time a preacher told me that the end times were here I would have a job to talk about in the other thread.