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Yes, because your response to my comments changed my mind. If you had said "When I was young, I didn't really believe but I was drawn closer to God as I got older." that would have been completely acceptable. You told an annoymous poster that he was still young and hinted that he will change his mind when he gets older. Yes, when you discount what someone is saying because of their age, you are saying they are ignorant. If a 17 year old kid comes to me with relationship problems and I laugh and tell him, "Don't worry, you're too young to worry about this." I'm saying that he is too young to fully grasp what a relationship is. It is condescending and you come off as a complete ass when you say it. My problem isn't with age playing a factor in your life. It's you using age in a blanket statement saying that everyone will respond the same way you did, which is obviously complete crap because I had the opposite response over time. If I were to tell a 18 year old kid that the reason he believes is because he is still young, you would have a huge problem with that. The fact that it worked out that way for me is completely irrelevant.

 

By the way, my offer still stands. If you are capable of having a direct conversation with God, ask him for the answers to a few of my questions in this thread and I'll happily listen to them.

 

 

I said I got 10-12 years on him. Its a fact. I said at his age, and my exact words were " I still had a hard time believing 100% into the theory of God or Jesus." I don't know. That sounds pretty clear and on par with your "When I was young I didn't really believe" comment just put differently.

 

As far as saying he may change his mind one day whats the problem with that? I said and my exact words were "I understand it all sounds mojo jojo but its just my life. Maybe one day you'll get that emperical evidence. I hope it does and I hope when/if it does, you won't look back." Thats after he took what I said and basically called it "mojo jojo" which I noted I understood.

 

What questions do you have btw? Not that I can answer them but I can do my best.

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You quoted a definition of empirical that relates specifically to medical theory. In medicine, empirical theory means that the thing described is based on experience rather than scientific backing, which is why a synonym in medicine for "empirical theory" is "crackpot theory".

 

The more common definition of empirical is "provable or verifiable by experience or experiment."

 

So while you could argue that your experiences are proof of God's existence, said existence is in no way verifiable, and for that reason, the word was an inappropriate choice.

 

 

 

1. No real study of evolutionary theory has ever stated that man evolved from modern monkeys. Ever.

2. The Big Bang is a cosmological theory. Evolutionary theory is a biological theory. They are not remotely related.

3. As emory pointed out, "we do not yet know" is a perfectly acceptable scientific response to a question, and in most cases is the only reasonable one. Given that current technology makes putting blackholes, for example, into a jar and running tests on them in a controlled environment impossible, we can only theorize as to how they react to the universe around them, and even how they're created. The fact that we find evidence, even large amounts of evidence, for those questions doesn't make them facts(because they can't be tested) and it certainly doesn't mean that there aren't questions that are currently beyond our ability to answer.

 

But neither of those things puts us into a position where any answer is better than no answer. If I walk up to my desk, and there's suddenly a new computer there, I'm going to ask my coworkers how it got there. I'm positive I'd rather one of them say: "I don't know" rather than "Bob did it" if the person I'm asking actually doesn't know, regardless of the fact that the latter is a firm answer and the former is not.

 

 

Point taken. Thank you for clarifying. Your right. My experiences are only verifiable for me. Theres no scientific evidence of it happening and no one here was there to witness it.

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for the jonah story, there is no need to put a spin on it. people tossed him overboard and the whale actually brought him to the place he was supposed to go to in the first place. God wanted him to preach to them, and when he finally did, they all repented. if God had just let jonah run from him, that whole city would have remained in sin. and this further adds to my point. jonah was spoken to by God personally, and he still ran away. there were four hundred years between when the last old testament prophet wrote and when Jesus began preaching. in those four hundred years, signs were not happening, and israel thought that God had forsaken them. we only see the big miracles because thats what was recorded. it wasnt happening at all times, except when God was establishing his people. now that his people has been established, there is no need for many miracles because it would not serve as great of a purpose. does that mean miracles are done happening? no. in fact, they are much more prominent in places that dont have the means to the end which the miracles serve. someone needs to be cured of an illness, we have doctors. why should to pray to God for the sniffles? but in a third world country its much more severe, and i have heard many accounts from missionaries of great things happening in these countries.

 

Jesus did many miracles in the temple and in the region of galilee. these did not bring all of his followers to him. in fact, he even spoke against them. do you know that after he fed the five thousand the majority of the people he fed actually left him almost directly afterward?

 

Jesus did many miracles in the temple and in the region of galilee. do you know that after he fed the five thousand the majority of the people he fed actually left him? and the resurrection, if it did happen, is the single greatest argument for the existence of God.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JYdzUYyIKMM

 

if the rapture occurred, you say youd be first to start a church, but what kind of church would that be? forced worship is not what is desired. and God desires his people to worship him not only with their hearts and souls, but in their bodies and minds, through service and learning.

 

you say that the records of his existence are both contradictory and written centuries later. i already showed you that they were written within decades of his death, on the witness of those closest to him, the apostles. paul even appeals in his letters to talk to those who saw Jesus and ask about him so they can affirm what he is saying. the contradictions that are in the gospels arent anything to make a big fuss over. in history, the most important thing is that all of the major events and themes align. as an ancient history, the gospels are just as reliable as any others that we currently trust. and they all agree on the biggest points of the gospel, that Jesus was sent by God, precluded by john the baptist, had a last supper, went on trial and was condemned to crucifixion, then rose again from the grave. these are the points that must be investigated.

 

if the four gospels in the new testament matched perfectly on every account, would that make them more reliable, or would it raise the question of conspiracy? if four different people see a car accident from four different places, it would make sense that the accounts differ. this is the same issue we have with the gospels. the fact that they differ actually helps the argument for the gospels authenticity.

 

Sorry, your youtube clip is blocked at my work. I'll have to watch whatever it is later.

 

The problem with the Jonah story isn't the result. It's that Jonah was never really given a choice. According to the bible, every person has the right to free will. Well Jonah was not given that option. That story in the bible completely contradicts that viewpoint.

 

You've heard great stories from missionaries in 3rd world countries because there is no one there to document it. My mom told me a story a while back about a person that was brought back to life after being dead and buried for a month. This was preached in a sermon in her church. If there had been any factual evidence to validate this story it would have been all over CNN for months. The story is complete crap and that's why I heard it third hand from my mom. And please don't try to feed me the line that America doesn't need miracles. There are thousands of stories of people dying from uncurable diseases, natural castrophes, and poverty for me to believe that.

 

Just because the Bible says that Jesus was resurrected doesn't make it so. It's a story that can't be documented by any piece of literature/evidence with the exception of the Bible. It's really not that hard to figure out a motive for the writers of the gospels to say that Jesus was raised from the dead. The whole religion hinges on the point! I hate to break this to you, but I've never heard of a single respected historian that believes any of the gospels were written within the lifetimes of the apostles. And if there was any evidence to suggest there were, historians would be tripping over themselves to publish the findings because of the acclaim it would bring them. To answer your question: No, the fact that the books contradict each other do not make them more believable. Even if the books were written within 30 years of Jesus' death, which is overly optimistic, it would be virtually impossible for anyone to remember the actual words/actions of Jesus well enough to create an accurate picture of his life. I say the fact that the books are so different reinforces that inaccuracy. So, I'm left with an inaccurate, incredibly hard to believe story, written several centuries after the events occured by authors that had every motivation to lie and no evidence to back up their claims.

 

The book of Revelations says that there will be believers during the time of tribulation. So if the unlikely event does occur, I'll happily throw my hat in the ring. I definitely know enough about the bible to start a church. You do raise an interesting point though because Revelations repeatedly says that God "hardens their heart" in response to the catastrophes that will occur so that they won't believe. If God isn't trying to give nonbelievers one last opportunity to believe in him, then what is he trying to accomplish? You know, other than millions of people suffering for no reason.

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What questions do you have btw? Not that I can answer them but I can do my best.

 

I really don't have the desire to type them out again. There are dozens of them in my posts in this thread. If you have a plausible answer that I haven't already heard, I will be shocked.

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Lol. First it's because I don't pray enough.

 

Now it's because I'm not 30-years-old? Give me a break. Prove to me that age is significant in deciding my beliefs. I actually drift away from organized religion year after year. I never get closer. I don't know what I'm going to see that will get me closer. A 'miracle' isn't going to work. A sermon isn't going to work. If you are going to discredit anything I say simply because I'm 10 years younger, then you are simply being ageist.

 

As for the Jesus thing, is there any real evidence of it outside of the Bible?

 

I've already discussed Evolution a great deal months ago with a couple of you. "Science isn't always 100% right." Yeah, it isn't, but guess what? It works. It's the reason why we're even debating right now.

 

I'll take the one that works the majority of the time over something that can't even be verified or disprovable.

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Sorry, your youtube clip is blocked at my work. I'll have to watch whatever it is later.

 

The problem with the Jonah story isn't the result. It's that Jonah was never really given a choice. According to the bible, every person has the right to free will. Well Jonah was not given that option. That story in the bible completely contradicts that viewpoint.

 

You've heard great stories from missionaries in 3rd world countries because there is no one there to document it. My mom told me a story a while back about a person that was brought back to life after being dead and buried for a month. This was preached in a sermon in her church. If there had been any factual evidence to validate this story it would have been all over CNN for months. The story is complete crap and that's why I heard it third hand from my mom. And please don't try to feed me the line that America doesn't need miracles. There are thousands of stories of people dying from uncurable diseases, natural castrophes, and poverty for me to believe that.

 

Just because the Bible says that Jesus was resurrected doesn't make it so. It's a story that can't be documented by any piece of literature/evidence with the exception of the Bible. It's really not that hard to figure out a motive for the writers of the gospels to say that Jesus was raised from the dead. The whole religion hinges on the point! I hate to break this to you, but I've never heard of a single respected historian that believes any of the gospels were written within the lifetimes of the apostles. And if there was any evidence to suggest there were, historians would be tripping over themselves to publish the findings because of the acclaim it would bring them. To answer your question: No, the fact that the books contradict each other do not make them more believable. Even if the books were written within 30 years of Jesus' death, which is overly optimistic, it would be virtually impossible for anyone to remember the actual words/actions of Jesus well enough to create an accurate picture of his life. I say the fact that the books are so different reinforces that inaccuracy. So, I'm left with an inaccurate, incredibly hard to believe story, written several centuries after the events occurred by authors that had every motivation to lie and no evidence to back up their claims.

 

The book of Revelations says that there will be believers during the time of tribulation. So if the unlikely event does occur, I'll happily throw my hat in the ring. I definitely know enough about the bible to start a church. You do raise an interesting point though because Revelations repeatedly says that God "hardens their heart" in response to the catastrophes that will occur so that they won't believe. If God isn't trying to give nonbelievers one last opportunity to believe in him, then what is he trying to accomplish? You know, other than millions of people suffering for no reason.

 

the video is a talk by william lane craig on the resurrection of Jesus.

 

jonah also spoke directly to God and was one of the prophets. job didnt have a choice either. or hosea. its the cost of being one of the chosen. and he was chosen because he was meant to bring forth the word of God as a part of the people israel. do you think david had a choice to become king? he didnt, but he fulfilled his role.

 

honestly, its not that we dont need help (the gospel explicitly states that we do), its that we have our faith in other things. i do think that there is plenty of need in the world, and in the u.s. in particular, but i also think the majority of this need can be met by people in this country.

 

when i mention the miracles, im not talking about someone who came back to life after being in the grave for a month. im very skeptical of that story, too and dont hold anything against you for not believing it. im also not talking about something i heard on a radio or through someone telling someone elses story they heard a preacher mention. i mean, i have close friends who are just as skeptical as you or me saying they saw someone stand up from there wheelchair and can call that very person up and have them tell what happened. someone who was barely able to move running in circles. all this to say that miracles do happen. you can attribute it to what you like, just like when cancers miraculously disappear. i dont think Jesus came so that he can show us fancy miracles, and i dont think God created the world so that he could make explosions in the sky. they really arent a necessary aspect of faith. at least not in the way we are defining them.

 

i also personally prayed over a schizo and saw him be healed of a demon. i know youll be skeptical of this (and hey, its the internet), so ill tell you the full story and let you come to your own conclusions...

 

i had been visiting some of the homeless in town and one of them was continuously either yelling angrily or bawling his eyes out. one day, we were talking and he suddenly started having a fit, yelling and banging on the tables (we were outside at a park). he sat down and continued yelling and flailing his fists like a child having a temper tantrum, so i sat across from him and put my hands on his knees. i prayed for him. i prayed that God would heal him and release him from whatever it is that has a hold on him. he doubled over and started crying. about ten seconds passed and he was quiet, then he sat up and started walking around. he was looking up at the sky and then he jumped in the air and yelled "the conversation's over!" he yelled this about two or three more times, then ran over and gave me a hug. i knew him for a year after that, and he didnt have a single episode in the whole time i knew him. he was always calm, and i had bought him a bible and he was reading it every day.

 

take from it what you will, but i cant think of anything else to explain what occurred.

 

now, never once have i said nor would i ever say "because the bible says so." and what motive are you speaking of these authors having? to be thrown to lions? to give up their livelihood and spend their lives either traveling or being imprisoned? because thats what the lives of the first christians were like. all of the apostles besides john were martyred.

 

what respected historians are you listening to? the very latest anyone has projected anything in the bible being written is ad 90. and that is just one book; the gospel of john. please give me the name of one respected scholar that claims any book in the bible was written after ad 100.

 

our brains are able to hold a mass amount of information. back then, people had the entire old testament memorized in the particular community we are talking about. how many WWII stories have you heard accounted? if twenty or thirty years ago, we got a brigade of soldiers to recall their own accounts of what happened at a specific event, do you think they would have aligning stories? when something happens to you that changes your life, you tend to remember it.

 

and whos to say that there wasnt a recording of the sayings of Jesus? have you ever heard of the Q Source? if someone had a memory of Jesus teaching at a certain time in a certain situation and said, "he said something like this..." and paraphrased the teaching, then the writer were to go to the q source and find that very teaching that was mentioned, can we trust that teaching as authentic? how about if multiple people attest to this happening? there are so many similarities in the gospel accounts that you cannot simply dismiss them because you wonder on how specifically accurate they are. and since the apostles had been preaching on Jesus' ministry from the day of pentacost, i think there were plenty of chances for someone to record what they accounted or even to have committed it to memory?

 

youre left with a reliable, hard to believe story written decades after the event occurred by people who most cared and devoted themselves to it who were tortured and killed for what they believe, which has been diligently studied for centuries. there are departments in schools dedicated solely to the study of the historicity of the new testament books and they are finding something new every year.

 

in revelation it also says that the people bow down and worship the beast.

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Lol. First it's because I don't pray enough.

 

Now it's because I'm not 30-years-old? Give me a break. Prove to me that age is significant in deciding my beliefs. I actually drift away from organized religion year after year. I never get closer. I don't know what I'm going to see that will get me closer. A 'miracle' isn't going to work. A sermon isn't going to work. If you are going to discredit anything I say simply because I'm 10 years younger, then you are simply being ageist.

 

As for the Jesus thing, is there any real evidence of it outside of the Bible?

 

I've already discussed Evolution a great deal months ago with a couple of you. "Science isn't always 100% right." Yeah, it isn't, but guess what? It works. It's the reason why we're even debating right now.

 

I'll take something between 0-100%, rather than... 0%. That's just me though!

 

i agree with the age thing. i dont think that i can take a 15 year old seriously when he says he just "doesnt have enough evidence" but i feel like after your first year of college, you gain the maturity and experience enough to really investigate and question things. though your brain isnt fully developed until around the age of 25 (im 22), there is no reason to throw age out there. i mean, im pretty sure richard dawkins is over 30.

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So now we should believe it because the apostles were dedicated? Well, damn, Hitler was pretty dedicated too... so were a lot of other people.

 

i dont recall playing the scarecrow's song... why did this strawman appear?

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i dont recall playing the scarecrow's song... why did this strawman appear?

If you're going to base your evidence or likely hood of something being right on something such as "Why else would a human do all that?", then how am I supposed to look at similar people like Nat Turner and Adolf Hitler?

 

Humans are crazy. We'll do anything if we're seriously convinced we're right.

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Cancers don't miraculously disappear. Depending on what type of cancer it is and at what stage, sometimes your immune system is strong enough to take care of it.

 

Stress plays a large role in the fight with cancer. Often someone gets diagnosed with terminal cancer and dies two or three weeks later because they worry to death.

 

Diet also matters.

 

My Dad was diagnosed with terminal cancer in june of '09. The doctors gave him 5-6 months to live. My mom did a bunch of research and got him on a very strict supplemental diet coupled with a few holistic medical supplements as well as the usual chemo/radiation.

 

That's kept him alive up until now. Last week they found out the cancer came back aggressively and its back to the 6 months to live.

 

Going about your life normally and dealing with stress in a healthy way is just as important as getting medical attention.

 

Really off-topic but its important.

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I really don't have the desire to type them out again. There are dozens of them in my posts in this thread. If you have a plausible answer that I haven't already heard, I will be shocked.

 

 

Fair enough. Like I said, I'm not hear to convert anyone to anything. Just to share a little about myself. I think you want answers but I started posting because the whole topic was to "share" your faith not convinced or convert anyone and even I did bring something to the conversation you haven't heard (guess we'll never know because I'm not going back through all the posts to find your questions) you'd probably have the same perception you have now.

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