Save C. Lee...

[VCdaCarter 73]

quote:

Originally posted by nttnybuc:

quote:

Originally posted by ThuglifeJ:

jesus you guys are TWEAKS!!!!

 

I didnt say anything about Carter ANYTHING until someone, a mod, brought him up.

 

I said that the play should have been finished and that was an easy layup to finish. IT WAS! Both layups he missed were what caused them to NOT WIN that game. Not saying u should expect a rookie to make layups in a final game under all that pressure..but yes they should make layups even if its an alley oop from inbound really not all that difficult to finish especially if you a professional NBA player at the guard position.

 

He did have to readjust in mid-air, so it's not as easy of a shot as you make it out to be

Lee misses an easy layup and the entire forum defends him, Vince misses 2 free throws and he catches hell.

 

Hey it doesn't get any easier than this.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YSLXPkqw80o

[jec 427]

quote:

Originally posted by VCdaCarter:

Hey it doesn't get any easier than this.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YSLXPkqw80o

 

It gets a lot easy than that, actually, but hey, it's you.

[VCdaCarter 73]

quote:

Originally posted by jecMagicMan:

quote:

Originally posted by VCdaCarter:

Hey it doesn't get any easier than this.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YSLXPkqw80o

 

It gets a lot easier than that, actually, but hey, it's you.

Fixed.

 

**** YOU I'm out!

[NittanyBuc 757]

Yeah, I guess the only differences are:

 

1.) One is a rookie; the other an 8 time all star

 

2.) One was brought in to defend the Wade's and Kobe's of the NBA; the other to CLOSE OUT GAMES

 

3.) One's been to the Finals; the other hasn't won more than a division title

 

 

But yeah, other than that....

[VCdaCarter 73]

quote:

Originally posted by nttnybuc:

Yeah, I guess the only differences are:

 

1.) One is a rookie; the other an 8 time all star

 

2.) One was brought in to defend the Wade's and Kobe's of the NBA; the other to CLOSE OUT GAMES

 

3.) One's been to the Finals; the other hasn't won more than a division title

 

 

But yeah, other than that....

Sooooo...Vince is better?

[NittanyBuc 757]

quote:

Originally posted by VCdaCarter:

quote:

Originally posted by nttnybuc:

Yeah, I guess the only differences are:

 

1.) One is a rookie; the other an 8 time all star

 

2.) One was brought in to defend the Wade's and Kobe's of the NBA; the other to CLOSE OUT GAMES

 

3.) One's been to the Finals; the other hasn't won more than a division title

 

 

But yeah, other than that....

Sooooo...Vince is better?

 

Offensively, absolutely, which is exactly why he has no leeway to missing 2 FREE THROWS in the playoffs. We might as well have put Howard or any person in the arena at the line.

 

But defensively and basketball IQ-wise, absolutely not

[jec 427]

quote:

Originally posted by VCdaCarter:

quote:

Originally posted by jecMagicMan:

quote:

Originally posted by VCdaCarter:

Hey it doesn't get any easier than this.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YSLXPkqw80o

 

It gets a lot easier than that, actually, but hey, it's you.

Fixed.

 

**** YOU I'm out!

 

Hey, he said "**** you" to me. You guys can use that as an excuse to ban him, now. If only stupidity and trolling were qualifications.

[Murphy13 185]

quote:

Originally posted by ButterMilkPancakes:

quote:

Originally posted by murphy13:

quote:

Originally posted by ButterMilkPancakes:

quote:

Originally posted by Audi:

quote:

Originally posted by ButterMilkPancakes:

quote:

Originally posted by murphy13:

When it comes down to the 5 games of the 82 games in a regular season where we will see kobe/wade...Lee wont make any difference individually compared to Redick on D, or Vince for that matter-it will come down to the team effort, just like it always has been under the SVG regime here in Orlando.

 

That all being said I thought Redick did just fine guarding Wade on ISO's late last season. And Redick stays with Kobe just fine as well, he just gets shot over just like Lee does. Kobe is Kobe. Redick is better at every other aspect as far as I can tell, so there is no reason to sacrifice so many other facets in favor of a player that has a slightly quicker first step on D.

 

Now if Lee was indeed theoretically shipped back to us and he thoroughly outplayed Redick then yes he definitely belongs in the SL. But if Vince were gone and Lee were here, it would be Redick's spot to lose imo.

 

 

5 games? Try over 30. Perimeter defending may not be what it used to, but it's still extremely important. The Lee/Redick situation would be a lot like the Sefolosha/Harden deal.

 

We will see Miami and LA 30 times this season? WTH?

 

Miami and LA aren't the only teams with starting SGs that could expose Redick defensively. I can't even begin to think the trainwreck it would be seeing JJ vs. guys like Stephen Jackson and Joe Johnson.

 

Lee's average defensive rating is 108, and Redick's is 107. Lets stop playing these games about how superior a defender Lee is. Is he slightly better at defending? Sure, if it makes you sleep better at night. But not enough to make a difference against the 'top' wing players in the league.

 

While digging up defensive rating I found it interesting to learn that Lee's win shares rating was less than half that of Redick's. More importantly, Lee's wasnt that bad. Redick just has an insanely high Win Shares rating...another reason why he should probably get starter minutes at the least-if not be the official starter.

 

CLee's defensive win shares while in Orlando were 3.1, while Redick's best year were 1.8. Lee also had more win shares in his first two years than Redick had in his first 3.

 

Clee's defensive rating while in Orlando = 104. Redick has never gone below 106. I don't know why you're comparing Redick's numbers to Clee's numbers in the year he played for a team that was 2 losses away from tying with the worst record in NBA history. Keyon Dooling's DRTg were 113, but that certainly does not mean he was that much worse defensively than Nelson and JWill, who had a DRTg of 106.

 

 

Courtney Lee is a much better defender, while Redick brings better shooting and better play making that CLee would.

 

 

Asking Redick to defend bigger guards for long stretches every game would be a terrible mistake.

 

Defensive rating and win shares are individual stats, team wins are not a variable in the equation first of all. So it doesnt matter if Lee's team won less, that has no bearing on his defensive rating since it takes in individual stats. Next, why are you comparing Lee's past numbers to Redick's current numbers? Ok, so shaq was better than dwight in 2005, therefore he is better than Dwight today-right? Furthermore, team wins may not be in the equation, but you know what is? Minutes played...and you are comparing seasons where Lee played nearly twice as many minutes as Redick-and STILL only finished with .9 more win shares total. Thats why it is only fair to compare this seasons numbers to eachother because it puts both players in a similar role. The fact that Lee played 2/3's of the time last year would suggest that he should have had way better numbers than Redick, but he didnt. This year atleast they are closer, although Lee still played over 500 more minutes than Redick.

 

I like how you discredit the Defensive rating because it goes against what you are saying, and then bring up defensive win shares and compare Redick's first 3 seasons combined to Lee's first two season when in fact Lee played more minutes this season alone than Redick did his first 3 combined. Yet you fail to mention that Redick's Defensive Win Shares are still higher than Lee's this year despite playing fewer minutes. In fact, Redick's Win Shares from this year nearly equal Lee's complete Win Share total from both his seasons in the League.

 

So, not only does Redick have about an equal overall DRtg but he also has a higher Defensive win shares, overall win shares, higher PER, all with considerably fewer minutes to work with. Where is your argument-aside from in the past?

 

Furthermore I dont know what you are trying to say comparing Keyon's Drtg to jwills/Nelson's. Of course Keyon's is higher, he is a good defender-jwill and jameer are not, what is your point?

[Natesroom 197]

Touche!

[avitale8 0]

You can't always go by those numbers. You can't expect his win share numbers to be comparable when you got a team that wins over 50 games and a team that barely wins over 10.

I watch the games and although JJ is much improved, and is a good team defender, against quicker guards, even the likes of Ben Gordon, he looks silly.

Lee is a much better defender. I think the only thing Redick is better at is ball-movement/passing. You could say shooting, but Lee is very good shooter himself.

I also don't get the argument that JJ should start because he has a 20 million dollar contract and Lee doesn't. Umm, if you remember Lee's rookie year he started over Pietrus who had a 20 million dollar contract.

[Murphy13 185]

I dont rely on stats alone to come to my decision about who should start either. But empirical evidence surely doesnt hurt the cause in a discussion between message board gm's. What the stats do show is that Lee is not a 'much better defender' than Redick. Is he better? Yes, by a little bit, but not by much. Win Shares is deduced using individual stats, if I am not mistaken, so team record is not used as far as I know...maybe I am mistaken but I dont believe so. Either way, the comment is more about Defensive Rating which clearly shows a wash at best between the two players.

 

Lee's quickness has been used as a crutch for his defensive abilities in comparison to Redick, but its the similar argument when using steals to determine whether a player is a good defender or not. Sure, good defenders often get steals, but that doesnt always work vice versa. The same can be said for quickness around the perimeter. Lee has many of the same disadvantages that Redick has on the perimeter(size) but Lee is quicker, that is where his advantage ends. As far as who should be starting, the argument is that their defensive abilities arent far enough apart to not have Redick in who is better in the other tangible categories. Lee was a good shooter his rookie season, not so much last year. He has an ugly jumper anyhow, I brought up his mechanics all last season and got blasted for it, but it showed through on his 33% shooting from the 3pt line this year. Although he did have an overall good fg%.

[Emory889 353]

quote:

Originally posted by ThuglifeJ:

sorry but the lee fanboys defending lee's 2 missed layups is like carter fanboys defending his 2 missed freethrows.

 

theres really no excuse at the professional level except choke.

 

So, a fading, adjusting in mid-air, under the backboard layup attempt has the same difficulty as 2 free throw attempts? I have a hard time taking anything you say seriously but I have to wonder if even you believe this pile of crap that you just typed.

 

quote:

Ignored post by VCdaCarter posted July 25, 2010 01:22 AM Show Post

 

Ah, bliss.