Justin Jaudon

Would anyone do a package of Payton and Frye and maybe a pick for Brandon Knight? His advanced numbers aren't terrific by any means, but I think he would fit well on this team's offense, and his defense actually reminds me of Payton's (inconsistent with bad habits, but occasionally really good).

I've been pretty clear on who I would choose between Payton and Oladipo, and my reasoning is fairly simple. You can teach skills like shooting, and experience will help eliminate mistakes. But you cannot teach consistency of effort and mental focus. From the moment Dipo came to this team, he's been all out effort and focus. There's been a learning curve, especially with learning to run the point for long stretches (something he should no longer have to do for more than 2-3 minutes a game). There's been a slow development of his shot (which is not finished, but it seems certainly to be getting better; he's not terrible, now). But the tools are obviously there, and these days there's a 50-50 shot he's going for 18-5-5 with great D or he's going for 10-3-3 with very good D. Payton, on the other hand, is the very picture of inconsistency in effort and mental focus. Dipo's inconsistencies are in skill development. Payton's are in mental makeup. I'm sorry, but that is not something that just changes with time. Maybe he breaks through some kind of mental wall, but that kind of thing is extremely rare. I like what Payton brings to this team... sometimes. That's the problem with Payton, that word: sometimes. Sometimes he brings it, actually decides to play defense (though he seems to always get torched by anyone with quick handles and a mid-range jumper, mostly because he actually has really poor habits even when he's going hard on D). Sometimes he decides to go hard at the basket and use his tremendous inside touch (though his foul shooting is nearly as bad as last year's, limiting that skill somewhat). Sometimes he isn't too scared to shoot more than 5 feet from the basket (much improved %, but seems even less inclined this year to actually do it, which might be why the % is up). Sometimes he gets others involved and shows some nice passes (though, for what it's worth, his assist average is not at all impressive, considering that's supposed to be his biggest skill). With Payton, it seems there's a 20% chance he'll play well in any given quarter, and a 50% chance he'll do nothing at all. I think the ceiling on these guys is still similar. Oladipo is very much looking like he will be a 15-4-4 guy on inconsistent %s who might turn into a 18-5-5 guy if his shot starts going in more consistently. He'll always be a stellar defender. Payton is looking like he will be a 13-6-4 guy on uneven %s who might turn into a 15-7-4 guy if he can improve his effort and focus, and if his shooting improves away from the basket. It's hard to say if he will ever be as good a defender as Oladipo, but he could be at least good if his habits improve (which they honestly should). The sad thing is, I can only think of a couple of teams that would likely take Payton for anything more than a late first rounder, and that's probably being generous. Look around the league. How many teams play with a pass-first PG who can't shoot? How many teams could even make much use out of that? Take the NOLA trade someone mentioned. I like Holiday, but why would NOLA want Payton? Could Payton play with Tyreke? Not likely, even if Tyreke really has fixed his shot from outside (which I doubt will be consistent). Payton's ceiling is Tyreke light on O with better D. The only places I could really see using him are Sacramento and Phoenix, both of whom already have good PG's not at the end of their careers. Sac could use him, sure, but mostly they'd be grooming him to take over whenever Rondo inevitably melts down or breaks down. He would thrive in Phoenix, but how valuable is he as Eric Bledsoe's backup? Somewhat valuable, sure, as Bledsoe has not been the picture of consistent health. But valuable enough to give up a legit asset? Probably not.

Well, Skiles said it was two bad rotations, but... okay... :pulpfiction:

So, the key to stopping this losing streak is to keep players in there even when they're playing poorly? Don't get me wrong, Shabazz' defense is awful, and he gets out of position, so I get not wanting him to see much playing time. But Payton is wildly inconsistent too, on both ends of the floor, and it has everything to do with focus and effort. The times I've seen Skiles pull Elf out is when he wasn't putting in the effort, or when 'bazz was hitting shots and Elf was doing bupkis. And Mario gets handled by almost every player we put him on, because he's a twenty year old kid who played exclusively in a league where no one plays defense and no one is physical going at defenders. He needs to learn, he needs to build muscle, he needs to toughen up. AG is getting burn, now that he is making fewer mistakes. Don't get me wrong; I like our young guys as much as the next fan. But you can't have your cake and eat it too. Not pulling guys when they're making stupid mistakes or aren't focusing is going to result in losses. If you think we should just accept the losses and stick to development, well, that's like, your opinion, man, but it is disingenuous to criticize the coach for his contribution to our losses, then say he should do things that will give us more losses.

If all of the horrible things that have happened to the Magic in the last 4 weeks led us to this moment, it was all 100% worth it. There are no words to describe Victor's face. :popcorn:

This is really the wrong place for this, but it is more appropriate here than anywhere else, I suppose, as at least one of these guys could also be a trade target. I generally refrain from suggesting things like this, mind you, because, being a Gator fan, I see too much homerism in it. But I read an article recently making a good point that Orlando should look into signing Joakim Noah this offseason. He fits exactly what we would want from a backup big man, someone who could get minutes beside Vuc in spots, and also spell him for a change of pace when defense is needed. More than that, the guy has a champion’s attitude toward hard work, something this team desperately needs. He is the perfect veteran presence for Orlando if his price tag is not too high, which it shouldn’t be considering the last couple of years have been hard on him. Add to that the other perfect target for Orlando this offseason: Al Horford. Now, Horford will probably want to go to a contender if he leaves Atlanta, but what if he wants one last big payday. The crazy thing is that Orlando should have plenty of money to throw at him, and he’s worth every penny for what he could do for this team. Another guy who knows how to win, and he fits perfectly on this team on both offense and defense. He can stretch a defense, he’s not a terrible rebounder, and he’s actually turned himself into a decent shot-blocker. He can play both big man spots, and at an elite level. I know that somewhere in my mind this is just Gator fanboy trying to live out the glory days on his favorite NBA team, but doesn’t this make perfect sense for this team, to put a heavy target on both of these guys? These are two veterans (an obvious need at this point) who also fill needs from an analytic standpoint.

I hear you, but playing a bunch of 20-year-old kids so they could "develop" and pretending that winning didn't matter is what JV did. What you seem to want is more of that, or somehow both playing inexperienced kids with insufficient understanding of the NBA game while simultaneously winning games. There is no getting around it that playing a group of mostly 20 to 22-year-old kids, none of whom is LeBron James, is going to do two things: 1) develop those kids' games, 2) develop the losing habits of those kids as they become real NBA players. What Skiles is doing is exactly what he needs to do, holding these kids accountable for learning and understanding the game, not with words but with minutes. Skiles' first season was looking like a miracle until about halfway through the Miami game. This team has already reverted, and the odds are best that it is not permanent, considering that we can all see this team has talent and that Skiles is unwilling to let them continue to fail without demanding more of them.

People calling for Skiles' job, even questioning the job he's done, with the overall improvement this team has shown this year, apparently because he's not playing a twenty-year-old wing 20 minutes a game... The amount of overreaction in that response astounds me. Take a deep breath and realize that five games ago Skiles was Jesus. Red Aurbach could rise from the grave, and he still couldn't get a group of 25 and under kids to go through a season without at least one four game losing streak. Hyperbole is one thing, but bringing up the inane microwave burrito comments from the off-season and essentially declaring him a failure 35 games into his first season when this team is fighting for a playoff spot after three straight 20-something win seasons is not just an overreaction, it is :panicworker:

I haven’t been very active on the forums lately, but I’ve usually been there for the chats. I just want to make a few observations for the forum that, for the most part, I’ve made before in the chats. This team is very un-athletic right now, and that is killing the defense. Frye’s value as a floor-stretcher and leader is high, but his inability to rotate quickly absolutely murders this team’s ability to defend the high pick and roll, which was never going to be particularly good with Vuc anyway. Much like we saw that the minutes when Elf and Dipo are on the floor together have to be managed, for lack of shooting, the minutes when Frye and Vuc are on the floor together have to be managed, or almost eliminated, for lack of athleticism. To me, Frye needs to be taken out of the starting lineup, and Nicholson is not the answer. Everyone loved the success after the lineup change, but I warned before that it would kill Fournier’s game to move him back to SG. From what I’ve seen, it has. He cannot get around SGs to get to the basket the same way he was early in the season, and SGs are quicker to run him off the 3. On D, he cannot stay in front of the quicker guys, and he cannot react quickly enough to the pick and roll, going over or under. He has amazing fundamentals, which allows him to guard most wing guys one-on-one, but to me he’s better suited against slower 3’s both on defense and on offense. I’m not sure there’s any realistic way to get him back to the 3 before Oladipo figures out his shooting woes, but it is a problem right now that Fournier is not being properly utilized. Vucevic is frustrated on D, and his effort is slipping because of that. When Harris and Gordon were more often on the floor next to him, he had that extra half second to react that he isn’t getting with Frye and Nicholson. I don’t like Vucevic’s body language recently, but I do understand that this team has essentially thrown him to the wolves defensively. All that being said, it may be time – once Elf and Watson are healthy – to try going back to the season opening SL. The bench points will be a problem again, but hopefully Mario will be enough improved to get the second unit some points. Another idea is Mario starting instead of moving Oladipo back into the SL, but I’m not sure he’s ready for that.

This entire comment is baffling to me. The one thing Payton has almost always done well on offense is go to the hole. His timidity at times doesn't drive you nuts? His inconsistent outside shot? His inconsistent defensive effort? Why would you pick the best thing he does offensively and complain about what it looks like?

This was always going to happen. Right now, the Magic are winning with Dipo on the bench, playing the Manu Ginobili role that seems to fit him really well. But Payton still needs to be more consistent. He's young, and I hope he does. I know Dipo isn't happy coming off the bench, but hopefully that changes as the wins keep coming. I'm not convinced it will continue if the wins don't, though. Dipo is a very good player, and he's a more consistent contributor than Payton at this point. I see a Dipo/Watson starting lineup at some point in the season as a real possibility. Hopefully, though, everyone grows into the new roles and things work out.

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!VUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCCCC!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Orlando's first big win of the season, 103-91

https://youtu.be/qQWHxBOaGWU

OMG! that's hilarious.

I agree very much with this. I love Payton, and don't want to see him traded or left behind. I think he is very valuable, and his presence on the floor, especially on defense, is needed. I think this team should just try to minimize the amount of time Vic and Payton are having to play together, and right now it makes the most sense to me to try out a starting lineup with Watson if things don't improve with the guard lineup we have. The reason is that Vic is still finding a way to contribute when he's not shooting well, while Elf (younger, less experience) seems to get too timid and starts letting others run the offense rather than push into the center of the defense. A second unit headlined by Payton and Gordon (and when he gets his bearings, Mario) could be devastating. Keep Payton's minutes no lower than 25, just bring him off the bench and pair him with Watson/Napier/Mario/Fournier in the back-court more often than Dipo. I think that gives him the opportunity to attack the basket more with players who can stretch the defense out around him, and I think it does the same for Dipo in the starting lineup. Also, I'm not sure about Fournier at SG in the starting lineup. Obviously, he can do it, but I think he is more effective against bigger guys he can get around than against smaller guys he can shoot over. And bigger small forwards aren't going to come off of him and try to keep up with Dipo (though I'm up for watching teams try, if they're interested in it), 'cause that's a mismatch 9/10 times. Don't get me wrong, if Payton shows he can contribute in the offense more effectively, soldier on. Even more than Payton's tremendous vision in the break, I love the defensive versatility of the current back-court starters, because watching guards try to get a mismatch on Orlando right now is funny, except in that OKC game (that is a problem that must be addressed systematically, however much Vuc's defense has improved early in the season). Dipo and Payton on offense right now is something of a nightmare, but on defense it is becoming one for the other team. Hopefully, Payton figures this all out with some more time in the system; but if not, I like that we have a capable guy like Watson as a back-up plan.

Pretty much this is true. He does look improved as a shooter. The problem is that he's still bad, and he's still scared to shoot outside of 10 feet, which still kills the spacing for the offense when he's on the floor. There's a reason this team brought in a veteran point guard known for good shooting, and a young point guard known for good shooting. Skiles obviously wants Elf to work out. We all do. But you don't stick with something that isn't working, no matter how much you want it to. If this team is competitive midway through the year and Skiles feels like Elf's shooting is hurting more than his defense is helping, I would not be shocked to see him benched or shipped (preferably the former, if anything, as he's still young and otherwise very talented).

I can get behind this idea, but right now I think Dipo is way more likely to keep his job than Elf. Elf is struggling really bad, and at least Dipo is not such a bad shooter that he kills the offense. And that's not hating on Elf. I love Elf. His passing and defense are terrific. I just really think he has to learn to shoot to be an effective NBA player.

His inability/fear when shooting is doing what we all knew it would, clogging up the lane. It's a conundrum.

I'm trying to keep silent about Dipo right now, but I do feel I should agree with Space Jesus that dude is exactly what he should be. Anything more than what we're already getting out of him is gravy. For myself, I think he's a very capable player because he can get his own shot and he is extremely versatile. Is the THE guy? No. Will he be? Probably not. Is he an invaluable part of this team's future success? Absolutely. Teams have won in the past without stars, but I can't think of a team that ever won a championship without tough guys who go hard and play aggressive both ways. Right now we have two guys who are effective on both sides of the floor, Dipo and Gordon (and early in the season, maybe Vuc, shockingly). So as far as I can see, those two guys are still very much huge parts of the future.

Frustrating loss, only because they came out so flat in the first half, no energy at all. Needed to be more aggressive on offense.

crazy lineups right now

Interesting thought, I suppose

He was overly aggressive the last two games, but this timidity hurts his team even more. Balance is the right word.

Dipo needs to get aggressive again. No one else seems willing.