Franchise408

I think that's my assessment as well. If this team was at full strength, and we had a starting lineup with Carter, Paolo, Franz, Jalen, and Markelle, with our role players of Cole, Okeke, Ross, Bamba, Bol Bol, and Hampton all playing off the bench (and even Isaac too), we are probably better than 5-18. For all the frustrations this year, they are competing hard every night and it does feel like they are close. I don't think a play-in tourney spot is some unimaginable feat for this team given their talent, tho they will fall short of it this year. This team feels like an almost-but-not-quite kinda team. Coaching and some legit vet presence could probably do wonders for this squad.

Which is sad, because I don't believe them to be the least talented team in the league. But who knows, maybe I've overhyped the talent on this team in my own head.

50 wins? Someone actually suggested 50 wins? I thought I had a pretty overly optimistic expectation when I suggested this team could possibly win close to 40 and compete for the play in tourney. I felt that was the high end for this year.

I don't follow college much either, so I'm not the guy to talk to about prospects. My commentary about Vic or Scoot is less about them as players, and more about the philosophy of tanking. There's a significant segment of sports fanbases, particularly in the NBA, and the Magic fanbase is an active part of that at present, that holds tanking in high regard as the premiere philosophy for rebuilding a team from bad to champions. But it is simply not a viable strategy. You are undermining your own franchise to roll the dice hoping that 1. you get the pick to get the guy you want and 2. the guy you want is actually going to be a franchise altering player, and not a bust. Then you factor in that throughout literally my entire life (I am going on 40 years old), the tanking strategy actually works very close to 0% of the time. Players who get picked with one of those tank-for picks don't win championships with the team that drafted them, if they even do go on to become championship level players. The greatest player of a generation, LeBron James, did not win a championship with the team that drafted him. He won with teams he signed on with as a free agent. The very few exceptions to the rule are Tim Duncan and Kyrie Irving, both who had different circumstances that led to their success, like a returning David Robinson to pair with Duncan, or Irving getting LeBron James signed as a teammate who then brought Kevin Love with him. Kyrie never did anything with Cleveland on his own. Even our own Shaquille O'Neal and Dwight Howard had exceptions, with Orlando getting 2 back to back #1 overalls to boost the talent around Shaq (and Horace Grant wanting to play here), or getting additional first rounders (Jameer) and free agents (Hedo Turkoglu) to put around Dwight right off the bat. The players who do win championships with their teams are not drafted in the top picks that teams tank for. Dirk, Steph, Giannis, Kobe, and the list goes on and on, are all players that were drafted later on, lower in the lottery or non-lottery altogether. This is because, as has started to become pointed out around here, teams have to take the steps to get to championship contender. They don't just go from nothing to winners, they have to go through the stages of mediocrity, average, good, first. When you're tanking for picks, you are getting rid of any semblance of talent that could be used to help you take those steps, and then when you do get that player in the draft (if they are that player) there is nothing around them to work with, and by the time you're able to start building up that surrounding talent, that player has left to move on to a better situation because now you've established a losing culture. Tanking doesn't work. The poster child for tanking success in recent years has been Philadelphia, who hasn't even once gotten out of the Eastern Conference, and is now starting to show signs of being on the other side of their window. If the biggest example of tanking success you can point to is a team that's didn't even win a conference title, then I think the philosophy is a failed one. If we are intentionally holding out guys who can play but saying they are still injured, when they should be on the court developing and improving, then this front office is establishing a losing culture for a philosophy that has a nearly 0% track record, stunting the development of the young talent we do have, and ensuring that we end up in the same spot once again as soon as all our young talent leaves for better situations because they don't want to be stuck in this black hole of an organization. That's a big "IF" tho, because I'm not yet 100% convinced that's what's happening. I currently think it's just a combination of things, from our players being too young and raw and needing time to develop and play smarter, learning how to win, to legitimate injuries to guys like Wendell Carter, to likely having a coach that is a stop gap coach and not the guy that we need to actually have success in terms of wins. But I know there's some rumblings right now, especially with some recent tweets from players, so I'm addressing that context.

No, Victor or Scoot do not make tanking a sustainable or viable strategy.

I've actually confirmed my original question: Fultz will be starting tonight, as per the Orlando Magic official Facebook page.

Are Cole and Ross back tonight as well? Because if so, yea I'd probably do that as well. Then when Suggs comes back, slot him in as the starting 2 guard.

Me too. Curious if he'll start or come off the bench.

Magic fans have been doing nothing but campaigning for tanking ever since we traded away Dwight.

Appreciate it. I've made lots of posts like this in the past, and have even supplied decades worth of stats and results to prove that tanking doesn't work, but unfortunately it's typically met with contention and downvotes. I've had to take a break from this place, and leave Facebook groups, because the fanbase is just so vocally adamant about losing at all costs, to the point of boo'ing wins and seemingly hating any sort of improvement or slivers of success. I don't watch sports to actively root against my team and watching them intentionally put a bad product on the floor. I understand that ups and downs happen, and I am generally pretty forgiving of down times because I understand the cycle of sports, the ups and downs, but I am not forgiving of intentional tanking and intentionally setting your team up for failure. I truly hope that's not what's happening. This roster is not in a position to be holding players out longer than necessary from injury in the name of "tanking", because this is talent that needs to play and develop.

I think its an absolute disaster if this FO is tanking for him

If the discussion about the team's current success (or lack thereof) is centered around tanking, then tbh I'm going to be pretty damn disgusted with our FO. I am anti-tanking from the get go, but if the plan is to continue tanking, with all the youth and potential that we currently have, after already getting the #1 pick and getting a legitimate star to build around, then when does it actually stop? This team is full of youth. How many players on the roster are 24 or under? It's basically everyone other than T-Ross, right? These guys need to actually develop. Learn how to play at an NBA level, learn how to win, and learn how to develop a culture among themselves and develop expectations. If the team sucks, they suck, so be it, and if they are middle of the pack and low lottery or even a low seed playoff entry, then so be it. No team goes from tanking to champion with the high end lottery pick that they tanked for. It doesn't happen, and the very rare exceptions that do happen have very big exceptions to the rule (i.e. an injured David Robinson coming back alongside TIm Duncan, or LeBron James signing to join alongside Kyrie Irving and bringing Kevin Love with him). Tanking is a failed philosophy to begin with, but when you actually have already gotten the draft picks, the youthful potential, the talent, it's time to start letting them play and develop and become what you drafted them to be. If this organization is intentionally holding these players like Fultz, Isaac, and to a lesser extent, Carter and Anthony, out longer for these injuries when they could be playing and contributing now, then I will be absolutely disgusted. How is all this youth you've accumulated over the years of abysmal performance ever going to develop if you are intentionally not allowing them to play, and putting the ones who are left (like Paolo and Franz) in an impossible situation. It's so absurd that I have a hard time fully believing that a professional front office would be so blatantly incompetent. Like, the supposed point of tanking is to get youthful talent that you can build around and improve with. Well, we have the talent. Why tf are we still in tank mode? For Wembanyama? Really? Dude looks like the next Chet Holmgren, meaning, severely injured before he can even step on the court. And as far as all this top tier talent talk is concerned, the greatest talent of a generation (LeBron James) couldn't win the team that drafted him a championship until they brought him back as a free agent to pair with another all-star talent and another #1 overall. Tanking for Wembanyama isn't going to be the move that turns this team from perpetual lottery team to NBA champions. But developing the players we have, developing chemistry and a culture of winning and expectations, and putting key pieces around that talent to enhance what we already have, is what can do it.

Careful. I've pointed this out plenty in years past and get downvoted into oblivion because people around here have devoted themselves to the mindset that we have to tank for picks.

This is just one of many reasons why tanking is an invalid strategy.

JALEN SUGGS DOES IT AGAIN!!!

Magic over the champs!!

Bruh we need to give Suggs his flowers tonight. Dude put the team on his shoulders against the champs.

So has Mosley just decided that Banchero isn't a scoring option anymore? A 0 point 1st quarter? Best player on the team is being completely taken out of the gameplan.

Frustrated as I am by last night, I'm not giving up on anything yet either. Our floor leader is hurt. And I don't really see the need to go sign someone, because Fultz will be available sooner than later. And the kind of person we'd be signing to play for a couple weeks isn't gonna be anyone who is going to give us any sort of significant upgrade. I don't dislike Suggs, though he's probably on the lower end of our talent potential. I think he should be a 2-guard, not running at point. I do agree with some vet leadership. This is exactly why I didn't want to trade Vuc. I think this team needs a guy like him right now. But alas, I am torn because trading Vuc got us Franz. But my entire stance against trading Vuc when we did was based all on this situation we find ourselves in now - we have a lot of young potential talent but no on-court leadership to guide them. I think in the long term, this team is actually set up nicely. I think Fultz can be our guy at the point. Cole and Suggs can be our guy at the 2. Franz will be a standout at 3, Paolo our all-star at 4, and Carter can be a solid anchor at the 5. Off the bench we can have Cole & Suggs in rotation, Isaac, Bamba, Ross, and Okeke, and I feel like that's pretty solid, with room to bring in some vets that can offer some guidance. Overall I'm even liking what I'm seeing on the court. These guys are competitive with everyone they've played. They are just young, and as stated earlier, green. Lots of careless turnovers, and not the greatest shot selection. We blew a game last night that we should have won. But once this group grows and matures and develops, I think they can be dangerous. It's already fun for me to watch.

And now you know why I am 100% anti-tanking

This is a bad L. They aren't even attempting to get the ball to Paolo. Best player on the team isn't even touching the ball. I don't mind losing but this is an absolutely embarrassing meltdown.

And now you see why I hate tanking and don't believe it works. Getting your Franz and Banchero are great, but there needs to be pieces around them. Where my optimism comes from however is the fact that we do have pieces. We've been drafting those pieces. But like Banchero and Wagner, they need to mature and develop. Our entire roster is under 25 years old, with tons of top picks. 1's (Banchero, Fultz), 4 (Suggs), 6 (Bamba, Isaac), 8 (Wagner) 15 (Okeke, Anthony, both of which could have been higher if not for health concerns), all under 25. Yes, some of these players need to start hitting soon, but this was *never* the year guys. I understand that it's been a long time and it sucks. The previous GM was atrocious. This new crew has done a good job of clearing out the previous mess and stockpiling new young talent. *This* particular plan hasn't been taking 12 years, and it's gonna take time to come together.

Despite being winless to this point (hopefully #1 comes tonight?), I am actually feeling very optimistic about this team. Paolo is clearly the right pick, and a legit #1 overall. I am very excited for what is to come from him. Wagner is a legit player, carrying over his contributions from last year and I'm seeing improvement there as well. Cole Anthony is turning into a beast. Whether a starter or off the bench, he is going to be a great weapon to have in this rotation. Carter is an anchor. Ross has been a good stop gap for us til we get the rest of our guys back. Bol Bol has been nice off the bench. We get our floor general back in Fultz, and I think this team has some real potential. Not necessarily this season (I'm still looking at a play-in tourney high end projection for this year's team) but going forward, I think this team is set up. I like Bamba, but can understand the reasons behind moving him if we do. I can also understand if we decide to move Isaac once he's healthy as well. But I think those assets are still strong enough to at least get us something in return that can help us, and enough potential to be pieces for us should we keep them. I'm very excited for this year.

We might not be, but it's time to let these guys play and figure it out the hard way. Far as I'm concerned, the starting 5 needs to be Carter, Banchero, Wagner, Suggs, and Fultz, with a 5 man bench of Anthony, Isaac, Bamba, Okeke, and either Ross or Hampton, and let the youth play and develop. We aren't gonna get anywhere by trying to sabotage success for draft picks. If the team genuinely isn't good enough, then we can make an evaluation based on that and decide where to go from there. I *still* don't know how I feel about the Vuc trade, but we did get Wagner out of it so it looks like it wasn't all bad, but the time for trying to stock pile top draft picks is over. Fultz has 2 years left, Cole has 2 years left, Suggs and Wagner are on rookie deals for a couple more years, and contracts like Ross and Harris are about to come off the books. We have to look at what we have while we can afford to do it and will have money to afford any replacements.

Nah, the time for tanking is over. Tanking should never be the plan to begin with, but this is where we are at. But right now we are stacked with top draft picks, we need to start pushing for on court success. Otherwise we are gonna end up wasting the rookie contracts we have and discount contracts of Fultz and Isaac if we keep the tanking thing up, and be stuck at square one. I know we don't have any control as fans here on the forums, but my expectations are to fight for a play-in spot. If we are in contention for a top lottery pick again, im gonna see this season as a huge disappointment and a black mark on this FO.